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Thread: Clubs and Disciplinary Matters

  1. #11
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by FellJunior View Post
    As WP pointed out there is an overlap when runners reach their 18th birthday.
    I think you will find that it was Graham who pointed that out. I did ask Graham to identify where it states in the rules that you become a senior when you turn 18. I'm still awaiting the guidance, but there's time yet

  2. #12
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I think you'll find that's wrong FJ

    In 2013 she will be an U10 by my calculation.
    My youngest (Oct b'day, and 6 on 1-1-12) will be U8 in 2012 and and also in 2013 (7 on 1-1-13) as FJ says.
    My 7 year old (8 in Feb 2012) will be U8 in 2012 as FJ says, but U10 in 2013 (8 on 1-1-13) as FJ doesn't explicitly say, but intimates.
    [aside - but my 7 year old will still be U9 in Tameside school XC running further distances than in FRA, but what has that got to do with FRA....]
    I dont think I need the calculator now to work it out and I haven't checked. :w00t:
    Last edited by OB1; 13-01-2012 at 12:00 AM. Reason: XC aside

  3. #13
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I think you will find that it was Graham who pointed that out. I did ask Graham to identify where it states in the rules that you become a senior when you turn 18. I'm still awaiting the guidance, but there's time yet
    Aye, fair point. Maybe it's in the small print - or perhaps embeded in Rule 1? - I'll look it up in 10 years time - it might be clearer then

  4. #14
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by OB1 View Post
    My youngest (Oct b'day, and 6 on 1-1-12) will be U8 in 2012 and and also in 2013 (7 on 1-1-13) as FJ says.
    My 7 year old (8 in Feb 2012) will be U8 in 2012 as FJ says, but U10 in 2013 (8 on 1-1-13) as FJ doesn't explicitly say, but intimates.
    [aside - but my 7 year old will still be U9 in Tameside school XC running further distances than in FRA, but what has that got to do with FRA....]
    I dont think I need the calculator now to work it out and I haven't checked. :w00t:
    Looks like you're due an apology Jim - Sorry

    A long drive back from Oban, via Lochgilphead and Largs lead me to miss the "youngest" reference

  5. #15
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by OB1 View Post
    Aye, fair point. Maybe it's in the small print - or perhaps embeded in Rule 1? - I'll look it up in 10 years time - it might be clearer then
    OB1 - it's a significant point. I'm one of a minority in the sport who has spent time trying to get my head around the rules. Not just FRA Rules, but the UKA Rules which are extremely complex when you get in to issues such as competition year and junior age groups and how that can vary whether you are talking track, road or cross country.
    The FRA rules are better and clearer than UKA, but still not as clear as they should be as evidenced by this.

    When a race in the Calendar states "Minimum Age 16" there is a significant likelyhood that this information, published in the FRA calendar and on the website is inaccurate and could lead to an athlete entering the race ignorant of that fact.

    Should we really be considering holding athletes and clubs responsible if the rule makers who govern the sport have allowed errors / inconsistency to creep in to the information that they put out?
    I would suggest not.

    Graham refers to the reporting of incidents to UKA as they are the ultimate governing body now. But UKA actively encourage breaches of their own rules. Park Run is insured under UKA and yet they allow people of any age to take part in a 5K race, yet any individually UKA permitted 5K road race would have minimum age of 14.

    My conclusion is, send mixed / unclear messages to the sport and you will get unintentional breaches of the rules.

  6. #16

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I did ask Graham to identify where it states in the rules that you become a senior when you turn 18.
    In its attempt to keep the rules simple, which most members wish, the FRA decided that 99.99% of its members did not actually need a specific Rule, bearing in mind the subservience of the FRA to English Law, spelling out that when you attain the age of 18 you cease to be a junior.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  7. #17
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    But do you acknowledge the inconsistancy then? We are always dealing with matters of age group on here. We have differing calculations for UKA, FRA and BOFRA so is it any wonder that we get these regular requests for clarification.

    Age on 1st January in the year of competition (i.e.not age on race date) is a critical factor.
    From your first post.

    RULE TEN
    Race organisers must stipulate age limits for their events but the following maximum distance limits for
    juniors must be observed.
    Ages are as at 1st January in the year of competition.
    .......
    Under 18 - 6 miles (9.6k)


    While there may be 'mixed messages', Rule 10 always takes precedence
    From Fell Junior

    So according to the rules an athlete turning 18 today is unable to take part in a fell race beyond 6 miles as they will be an U18 under the rules. That's what is in the rules.

    Once you become 18 on the day you literally cease to be a junior and Rule 10 does not apply.
    That's a statement from you Graham, but Rule 10 always takes precedent and it is in breach of rule 10.

    In its attempt to keep the rules simple, which most members wish, the FRA decided that 99.99% of its members did not actually need a specific Rule, bearing in mind the subservience of the FRA to English Law, spelling out that when you attain the age of 18 you cease to be a junior.
    Rule 10 precedent again - I doubt English Law can touch that

    However, if we are going to defer to what the actual legal case may be then we do open a can of worms. Is refusing to allow a 16 year old the right to contest a 8 mile fell race such as Auld Lang Syne a breach of their human rights?
    NO I don't want to go there either

    (and we still haven't cleared up the anomaly about the Calendar's incorrect race age limits)

  8. #18
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Just for further info.

    UKA Rule 107(6)
    (6) Seniors
    A Senior is a competitor who is at least 20 years of age on 31st December
    in the calendar year of competition.


    This applies to Track and Field, but interesting that it is felt the age at which someone is recognised as a senior is built in to the rules and that it isn't 18.
    For Road 207(5) and Cross Country 507(5) states aged at least 20 on 31st August prior to the commencement of the Competition Year as defined above.

    Check out UKA Rule 207 for Road Running and I think you'll find a cause of the problem.

    UKA Rules have set age bands for championships such as a Northern 10 Road Champs as we had at the RV10K or the Northern Road Relays based on age as at 31st August.
    But for Open Road Races it is age on the day of the race.

    This seems to have been "accepted" as the way individual open fell races are dealt with - that age on the day of the race is relevant. It is the way it is presented in the FRA Calendar and it is the way that ROs present it in their own race literature and deal with it on the day.

    So I underline again that it is up to the governing body to :-
    1. Make sure their rules are clear.
    2. Police the ROs to ensure that they are clear and declaring the age limits "within the rules".
    3. If 1 & 2 are done effectively then any breaches by any individuals should be dealt with appropriately.

    Without 1 & 2 being in place effectively, I cannot see how you can pursue point 3.

  9. #19

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Richard,

    I know you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing.

    I could not care less about BOFRA, road, track, tiddlywinks.

    FRA Rules are crystal clear and the principles have not changed for years. People may not actually read them or try to undestand them; but 'twas ever thus.

    Regards,

    Graham
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  10. #20
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    For Senior events all ages are age on the day of the race. In the case of the Senior British and English Championship races this is stated on pages 100 and 103 respectively.

    The details of Rule10 have no relevance to organisers of senior Medium and Long races. All they need to know is that an individual is over 18 on the day of the race and therefore the Senior race entry form does not contain a field for "age on 1st Jan." as the Junior form does.

    Moreover the Junior race entry form is unsuitable for anyone over 18 on the day of the race because there is nowhere for the individual to sign and he/she doesn't require a parental signature. As I understand it, parents no longer have any legal responsibility for their children from the age of 18.

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