Clubs and Disciplinary Matters

[Clash City Rocker]

WP I cant say that we will ever agree politically but I have long since learned to listen when you speak about athlete development and progression and I agree. There are some juniors who can hold there own in longer races than there age permits. I sit Ok for a caoch to make that decision and not a parent though how do we decide who can cope and who cant? Surely thats why a line is drawn in the sand somewhere. That said I would be the last to want to hold back an athelete from genuine progression. Its a toughie you are right about being open to change whilst being mindful of the fact that the system we have has never to my knowledge stopped the cream getting to the top.

[manothemoors]

Flexibility is ok until it is seen as an open door for a parent to, independently of or in the face of coach advice, throw their kid in at the deep end in the belief that it will "do 'em good" or simply so that they can say "my young 'un was up with Rob Hope for 4 miles" over a pint. Equivocation may benefit the odd "well developed" young athlete but at the expense of how many? I think the rules are conservative but I do believe that it's out of necessity.

[Witton Park]

whilst being mindful of the fact that the system we have has never to my knowledge stopped the cream getting to the top.

I would contest that CCR. Our cream is currently settled somewhere in the upper echelons of the bottle but a little way off the top of that international pinta. Perhaps we'd be pushing that foil top from underneath if we had a slightly different approach

[Witton Park]

Flexibility is ok until it is seen as an open door for a parent to, independently of or in the face of coach advice, throw their kid in at the deep end in the belief that it will "do 'em good" or simply so that they can say "my young 'un was up with Rob Hope for 4 miles" over a pint. Equivocation may benefit the odd "well developed" young athlete but at the expense of how many? I think the rules are conservative but I do believe that it's out of necessity.

So in summary, we hold back the few for the benefit, protection and welfare of the many?

I do know where you're coming from as we've all seen the pushy parents, young athletes in an environment where they might not be comfortable and so we have this system in place to restrict that happening in races. But that restricts all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating sending a U14 around Sedbergh Hills. My own daughter is 18 and run for GB and England and asking me when she can do the PPP.
Her time will come, but it's not yet. This year as an 18 year old, she will get some taste of longer, tougher races, but up to AM is what is in my mind and away from the peat bogs of races like Winter Hill.

But how about this.

We have an FRA panel which may have on it the FRA Junior co-ordinator, the FRA coaching co-ordinator, and perhaps a couple of others. They go through the calendar and pick out some races that would be suitable for a "dispensation"?

eg. Fiendsdale, AM, 6.5m/2201ft, ER,LK,NS. Minimum Age 18 (16)

with the bracketed number being the age subject to a level 2 coach or higher signing approval.

[manothemoors]

"So in summary, we hold back the few for the benefit, protection and welfare of the many?"
Almost, but not quite. Certainly the "benefit and the welfare of the many" is the key. My own view is that limiting race distance according to age does not necessarily mean holding back young athletes. There are ways of progressing development without increasing race distance: improve running technique, running efficiency and, most importantly, speed. It's better that a talented runner smashes course records over her/his allotted distance than simply competes over longer distances with athletes who are, in almost every way, more mature.
That's not to stop them training over further, and with older athletes, if that is what the coach deems appropriate.

[Clash City Rocker]

The idea of improvement of technique MoM is the very essence of coaching and will not come from racing limited distances although I suspect that you are not saying this I am simply reinforcing for my own benefit. I think the idea that WP suggests is a real way froward to stay within the present system yet begin to pust the boundaries of change. Between us we share a number of athelets who are capable. CVFR have our Midsummer madness series which kicks of with an AS 3m/1000' (or whatever that is in new money) which 14 year olds can do yet finishes with a BS which is 4 miles and I think around 400' which they cant. Madness really as the second race is much easier than the first. I think a series of dispensated races clearly identified in the calender is the start in the right direction. With the rider of only on the say so of the coach. There will be problems for RO on the day of how to deal with junior whose parents insist that their coach has said its alright but they are not insurmountable and shouldnt stand in the way of progress. Weedle out the pushy coaches as well and we're on the way.

[manothemoors]

The idea of improvement of technique MoM is the very essence of coaching and will not come from racing limited distances although I suspect that you are not saying this I am simply reinforcing for my own benefit. I think the idea that WP suggests is a real way froward to stay within the present system yet begin to pust the boundaries of change. Between us we share a number of athelets who are capable. CVFR have our Midsummer madness series which kicks of with an AS 3m/1000' (or whatever that is in new money) which 14 year olds can do yet finishes with a BS which is 4 miles and I think around 400' which they cant. Madness really as the second race is much easier than the first. I think a series of dispensated races clearly identified in the calender is the start in the right direction. With the rider of only on the say so of the coach. There will be problems for RO on the day of how to deal with junior whose parents insist that their coach has said its alright but they are not insurmountable and shouldnt stand in the way of progress. Weedle out the pushy coaches as well and we're on the way.

I would add the caveat that the athletes we share are, on the whole, at the older end of the "junior" spectrum and less likely, perhaps, to be in over their heads with seniors....and racing further (most seniors would be over their heads with them). Flexibility and dispensation at their age would concern me less than say those in their early teens. I do take your point though.

[Witton Park]

"So in summary, we hold back the few for the benefit, protection and welfare of the many?"
Almost, but not quite. Certainly the "benefit and the welfare of the many" is the key. My own view is that limiting race distance according to age does not necessarily mean holding back young athletes. There are ways of progressing development without increasing race distance: improve running technique, running efficiency and, most importantly, speed. It's better that a talented runner smashes course records over her/his allotted distance than simply competes over longer distances with athletes who are, in almost every way, more mature.
That's not to stop them training over further, and with older athletes, if that is what the coach deems appropriate.

Agree - but having the option if and when it was felt appropriate would be progress.

[multi coloured]

The idea of improvement of technique MoM is the very essence of coaching and will not come from racing limited distances although I suspect that you are not saying this I am simply reinforcing for my own benefit. I think the idea that WP suggests is a real way froward to stay within the present system yet begin to pust the boundaries of change. Between us we share a number of athelets who are capable. CVFR have our Midsummer madness series which kicks of with an AS 3m/1000' (or whatever that is in new money) which 14 year olds can do yet finishes with a BS which is 4 miles and I think around 400' which they cant. Madness really as the second race is much easier than the first. I think a series of dispensated races clearly identified in the calender is the start in the right direction. With the rider of only on the say so of the coach. There will be problems for RO on the day of how to deal with junior whose parents insist that their coach has said its alright but they are not insurmountable and shouldnt stand in the way of progress. Weedle out the pushy coaches as well and we're on the way.

Spot on CCR but also a brand new can of worms here which i'm sure the university people setting the rules haven't thought of yet, now i'm sure common sense would stop the junior running MMS race 1 but chuck them into race 2 ????

Now just to go into a different sport here altogether, i'm sure every England football fan in the country is thanking thier lucky strars the FRA rules don't apply to the FA, otherwise we'd all of lost the first few years of Rooney, Owen, Milner ect.

[AndyA]

In 2011 there was a new junior pennine clubs competition in which we took part. That had problems because one of the races had different age groups so had to be discounted after the event and another race added. Personally I wouldn't use times from different races over the same course, kids run against each other, not against the clock.

I'm not aware of many clubs who have a junior champs. The problem being that the kids will already be running in Kendal winter league, BOFRA, FRA champs and their own local races. The first three all require a number of races for the championship so adding additional club champs races may get them running too much. My biggest concern as a coach is if they race twice in one weekend, which can happen

We ran a junior champs at clayton last year; best four from eight fixtures, prizes for age group best and for simply completing four races. It all went fairly well i think. We had some problems; the different BOFRA age categories, which I'll fix this year by not including a BOFRA race and occasional errors by race officials, putting runners in the wrong race.

We scored them in a similar way to kcac but we gave points according to how many from clayton ran in that age group; if five ran then the first clayton got five points, second got four points etc. That way, being first clayton when no-one else turned up only got you one point! We don't have a big junior section yet but it's growing.

I solve the problem of other championships simply by not pushing kids to enter them. We largely ignored the winter league and the BOFRA, FRA champs races unless they were local. As i said, we're fairly small as yet and i see little point exhorting parents to drive their kids all over the place to races where they will be hopelessly outclassed; where's the fun in that? We do have a couple of stronger contenders, they do travel a bit further and I support them for doing it but in general i think that local races should be supported first (that goes for seniors as well)

As we get bigger, we'll get more competitive and things will change. For now I'm quite happy with our runners just doing the local stuff as and when they feel like it!