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Thread: Clubs and Disciplinary Matters

  1. #81
    Senior Member Eleanor's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by multi coloured View Post
    Coaching kids should be a 'Breeze' !!!!
    Oh it is! :thumbup:
    Eleanor Knowles, Ambleside AC

  2. #82
    Senior Member FellJunior's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    A number of posters on this thread seem to be asserting that the existing junior rules on distance are preventing the 'production' of world class athletes. The sport will 'lack credibility', the rules are only to satisfy insurance requirements, the university nobodies (whatever that means) are out of touch, 'running a marathon at 13 never did me any harm' (from adults who as far as I am aware do not possess Olympic gold medals or have held world records), and bizarrely young swimmers have crossed the channel, if football had been subjected to FRA rules (!!!) etc. etc..

    All this assumes that unlimited race distance is the key to developing athletes to take part in often shorter international races. It also assumes that this is the sole purpose of organising junior races, which as any one who heard Rob Jebb's speech at the Uphill presentation in 2011 will realise in his view is not the case. Implying that Messrs Holmes and Stuart, and Ms Mudge would come up with very different rules is not only potentially insulting to them and their personal views of junior fell running, but pure unsubstantiated conjecture, which perhaps if only out of politeness should be withdrawn from this public forum. There has been no consideration of the innumerable practical problems of organising junior races with unlimited or much longer distances.

    For the last 9 years, the 6 race junior championship for U12 - U18 has been supported by an average of 250 runners. Recognition in some form for their achievements is given to not only the leading runners, but those in mid-field, and those who attend the majority of races. Therefore it can be argued that the format appeals to a wide spectrum of abilities, which perhaps is the prime objective of grass roots junior fell running. There is also some evidence that the introduction of an U23 category is helping to bridge the gap to senior running, and thus retaining juniors in the sport.

    In the same time period, despite these allegedly restrictive rules, England runners have won 2 individual gold, 1 silver team and 2 bronze team medals at the World Mountain Running Junior Championships. Representatives of the other Home Countries, who have similar if not identical rules, have also been successful. Latterly they have all been part of successful GB junior teams. This has been as a result of their individual (and their coaches) targeted planning, training, and abilities, which in my experience is the formula for success at the highest levels in most individual disciplines and sports. The nature of national championships has little influence on such development.

    This thread began with a repetition of the formal notice published by the FRA on the main website. Taken in conjunction with other reports on that website and the magazine in 2011, it would seem that there have been some major breaches of the current rules. No excuses or justifications, they have to be dealt with. Some posters seek dispensation for more able runners to take part in over distance races, without considering how this subjective assessment could possibly be policed. You only have to ask any RO, who has been abused by aggressive parents demanding such dispensation to know that it is a non-starter. However, the rules for junior fell running have evolved over the last three decades, and I'm sure will continue to do so, but only with a deal of thought, reference to constructive input, and within the detailed wider framework that society currently demands.

    (To avoid ill-informed posts in response, I would point out that while I am a fervent supporter of junior fell running, and gladly maintain the junior championship points tables, I am not a FRA committee member. The above is a personal view based on nearly two decades involvement with junior fell running.)
    Going downhill fast - until I fell over

  3. #83
    Senior Member wycoller's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Fell junior - as ever with this forum there are sometimes extreme views, some genuine and others often deliberately provocative. However these are also the same sorts of discussions that spectators/parents have at training sessions and races.

    What I'm raising, as are some others, is a question about whether the existing regulations should be reviewed for 16 and 17 year olds. Given that there have been breaches possibly by athletes, parents, coaches and clubs then some people clearly agree. My personal view is that many 16 and 17 year olds are quite capable of racing further than 6 miles but depending on the race. For instance my son can't run tomorrow at Stanbury Splash but really enjoyed the Auld Lang Syne (legally). However I wouldn't dream of entering him in some Lakeland races of similar length and, like WP, wouldn't want an 18 year in something as long as the three peaks. My suggestion was that we seek some scientific evidence to support any changes.

    I do speak from some experience being a fell runner, parent of 3 fell running kids, level 2 endurance coach and club chairman.

  4. #84
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    FJ - coming from the same position as Wycoller I favour considered evolution which is what you seem to allude to and if you look at my proposal for a dispensation it would be limited and coach lead where it is deemed appropriate.

    Coaching methods and ideas change - in my opinion, with a specific look at endurance, the reason why the GB endurance runners (and largely the rest of the western world) are not of the depth and quality of the 60s to 80s is perhaps because the techniques brought in by the Sport Scientists, the competitive structures that are in place, and not least perhaps the wider choice of sports now available have all contributed to that.

    That's not to denigrate the runners we have.

    I'd be interested to sit and talk to someone like Kenny Stuart. What was his youth like, when did he start running and at what point did he first stand out as a real talent and perhaps the greatest of our UK produced mountain runners and also one of our best marathon runners.

  5. #85
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Yawn.
    We can (and indeed should) debate the wider context of junior training and racing, and indeed FRA rules, ’till the cows come home, but perhaps on a different thread (?) rather than hijacking a simple request / reminder regarding current 2012 FRA rules (1st post). Yes, it’s clear the first post riled some folk to question and or ask for the rules (and the '18 b'day quirk') to be clarified (that means ‘made clear’ by the way, not ‘please introduce other diversionary discussions that have nothing to do with trying ones hardest to understand and obey the existing rules’)...
    The purpose of the original post (I believe, but am willing to be corrected) was simply to remind folk what the FRA 2012 Junior rules (like in 2011, and 2010, and....) are, two simple rules relating to age and distance, with an adult-quirk at 18. Basically, as things currently stand (for the 2012 season) the FRA rules are pretty straightforward, once ’read and digested’ rather than ‘read and spewed up’. Certainly not rocket science. Outside FRA, in training / other races, ‘we can do whatever we want’ relative to our own beliefs / other rules. Inside FRA , we can exchange views so as to influence what happens in 2013, 2014, ... 2050, but let’s leave and accept 2012 rules as 2012 rules. Hence why, a reminder to follow 2012 rules for 2012 (1st post), seems pretty straightforward as a standalone request ... to me at least.
    As a FRA member, part of a family membership, and parent to 3 Juniors, but with no coaching credentials, that’s pretty much all I need to know for FRA Junior rules for 2012, along with the other helpful website material. I would think the majority of the parents, once familiar with the rules, are the same, and it’s maybe a minority of parents that ‘don’t get it’ and hassle the RO for dispensations. Don’t tar us all with the same brush.
    Yawn.
    Obiwansikobe.
    PS. Kenyan youth (as in many other countries), often (normally) travel several km to and from school each day on foot, and often ‘run’ rather than ‘walk’, but rarely ‘race’; it’s just part of the daily commute. Glad my kids, even in Tameside, at the boundary of their school catchment area, walk / run the 1 mile to / from school 50% of the time. Unlike many others. Our school’s only at 250m rather than 2500m, so they lose out a bit on the altitude training, but they don’t seem to complain.

  6. #86

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Not being an historian I may well be proved wrong but I am going to assume that the rules we have at the moment grew from somewhere. Any clarification gratefully accepted (FJ?). Did these develop from already existing rules or just arbitrarily arrived at? As previously stated I have no desire to overstretch any young runner and for most the distances are good. As FJ said races are about more than just pushing yourself to the limit everytime they are also about teaching our juniors about enjoyment of the sport, simple going somewhere new different and frequently beautiful, They are also a way of passing on the traditions of fell running. However I see no harm in advocating the possibility of reviewing the rules and if acceptable and appropriate amending. The idea about certain races getting dispensation to have approved juniors racing further would have to be agreed with RO's beforehand anyway and would therefore not create situations where the RO is fielding awkward parents.
    "Moors are a stage for the performance of heaven"

  7. #87
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Next you'll be wanting no winners upto a certain age :w00t:

  8. #88
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by OB1 View Post
    Yawn.
    We can (and indeed should) debate the wider context of junior training and racing, and indeed FRA rules, ’till the cows come home, but perhaps on a different thread (?) rather than hijacking a simple request / reminder regarding current 2012 FRA rules (1st post). Yes, it’s clear the first post riled some folk to question and or ask for the rules (and the '18 b'day quirk') to be clarified (that means ‘made clear’ by the way, not ‘please introduce other diversionary discussions that have nothing to do with trying ones hardest to understand and obey the existing rules’)...
    The purpose of the original post (I believe, but am willing to be corrected) was simply to remind folk what the FRA 2012 Junior rules (like in 2011, and 2010, and....) are, two simple rules relating to age and distance, with an adult-quirk at 18. Basically, as things currently stand (for the 2012 season) the FRA rules are pretty straightforward, once ’read and digested’ rather than ‘read and spewed up’. Certainly not rocket science. Outside FRA, in training / other races, ‘we can do whatever we want’ relative to our own beliefs / other rules. Inside FRA , we can exchange views so as to influence what happens in 2013, 2014, ... 2050, but let’s leave and accept 2012 rules as 2012 rules. Hence why, a reminder to follow 2012 rules for 2012 (1st post), seems pretty straightforward as a standalone request ... to me at least.
    As a FRA member, part of a family membership, and parent to 3 Juniors, but with no coaching credentials, that’s pretty much all I need to know for FRA Junior rules for 2012, along with the other helpful website material. I would think the majority of the parents, once familiar with the rules, are the same, and it’s maybe a minority of parents that ‘don’t get it’ and hassle the RO for dispensations. Don’t tar us all with the same brush.
    Yawn.
    Obiwansikobe.
    PS. Kenyan youth (as in many other countries), often (normally) travel several km to and from school each day on foot, and often ‘run’ rather than ‘walk’, but rarely ‘race’; it’s just part of the daily commute. Glad my kids, even in Tameside, at the boundary of their school catchment area, walk / run the 1 mile to / from school 50% of the time. Unlike many others. Our school’s only at 250m rather than 2500m, so they lose out a bit on the altitude training, but they don’t seem to complain.
    Your argument is in my opinion largely undermined by the sarcastic tone and seeing as it makes you yawn so much I doubt you'll even read this.

    Threads meander - that's the nature of them.

    The original point of the post was challenged because of what you refer to as a quirk. It wasn't a reminder, it was a threat of disciplinary action. If you make a threat, it is best to make the grounds for that threat clear and watertight. Other areas of athletics do have rules that declare precisely when an athlete becomes a senior. We also have to declare the age details for each race accurately in the published literature.
    I don't really want to go back to that as it's been dealt with and the grandees of the FRA can discuss this, as Graham has indicated they will.

    Like you, I'm part of a family, with juniors and I do have coaching credentials. I am also a RO. I think debates such as this are right and proper, stimulate ideas, challenge entrenched opinions and will hopefully help us all keep our fantastic genre of endurance running moving forward in the right way

    CCR is similarly a coach and RO, Wycoller a parent and coach. We coach junior internationals and FRA Champs and medallists, so we are doing something right, but still have a lot to learn. I think what we are looking for is the chance to offer a few limited opportunities for capable juniors to challenge themselves. If you ever attend any FRA Junior race you will find that the front end is often exceptional. Yet a junior U18 moves from a 6 mile cap to no cap in terms of distance overnight. Often the U18s are also pitched in with the U16s as well meaning they end up running only races up to 4 miles for the top 4 years of their junior fell experience.

    We have a situation where a male U16 athlete can qualify for the World U20s and has never been allowed to run over the distance of the worlds in race conditions on the fells in this country.

  9. #89
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    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    Threads meander - that's the nature of them.
    WP, your points are all valid, in my view, its just that this particular thread had meandered in figure-of-eights at least twice. Coaches and RO's do a bril job and we welcome your views. Picking up the Grump's invitation to find another sport how about this one punters:
    http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/220120...ate-world.html
    PS. Apologies, I couldn't help being tired and sarcastic yesterday - but my central point about 2012 rules being 2012 rules is a serious (not sarcastic) one.
    There is some but not much evidence of posts on this thread saying 'point taken, we will try and make 2012 a better rule-following-year than 2011' or some such similar.
    Last edited by OB1; 22-01-2012 at 01:17 PM. Reason: sp+ps

  10. #90

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrump View Post
    The rules for juniors are very clear on one point, regardless of whether there is confusion over age on 1st January or age on day of race; entries from juniors who are several years under age into races two or three times their permitted maximum distance is unacceptable on any basis. It doesn't take much analysis of race results, or even listening to rumours to realise the extent to which this is happening. In these situations, the perceived threat comes not from the FRA, but from those who collude with this practice and presumably do not care that the sport's reputation could be seriously damaged. The contention that more capable runners should be allowed to run further than their permitted distance just because they can, could in this context be criticised as equally selfish.
    Despite the FRA publishing several notices and documents on the subject of junior rules in recent months, it would seem there is still a hard core of RO, parents, coaches, clubs, (who knows?), who persist in thinking the rules don't apply to them, or that in some way their young runner is special. Hence this latest notice?
    Either conform, make constructive input to rule change, OR find another sport to undermine!
    Congratulations. Thats some splendid missing of the point. Well done.
    "Moors are a stage for the performance of heaven"

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