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Thread: Development of Young Athletes

  1. #111
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Re: Development of Young Athle

    Quote Originally Posted by christopher leigh View Post
    Richard I don't think it does work and I know because I competed in area 1500m heats and finals on the same day when I was 14. Yes some of the races were staged with sprint finishes but I decided I was going to make the final, and to be sure I had to drag the faster kids around at a pace I knew they wouldn't really want to go in a heat.

    Anyway I made the final but I was so tired from my exertions that I ran rubbish. Unfortunately for some of the faster kids in my heat they were also tired for the final. In fact you could say I messed up their chances.
    I've seen it a few times Chris and of course you cannot account for every single race.

    I don't object to this though as it's the same for all, the parties involved know this beforehand and it certainly seems a better option in a Northern to have a heat and final on the same day than have them on Day 1 and Day 2 with the overnight stay that will often then be involved for some.

    I object more to the mixed messages that come out of UKA and this is of that type - OK in a Champs to run 2 x 1500m, but in a Mid Lancs Track and Field League a U13/U15 athlete can't do a 800 & 1500.

    Strictly speaking these rules allow a 10 year old to attend a Northern U15s 1500m Champs and run 2 x 1500m races within 3 hours of each other.

  2. #112
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    Re: Development of Young Athle

    Quote Originally Posted by LissaJous View Post
    Well going from UKA rule 410 I think the 2 mile limit still applies, it's just been rounded to 3km. So you can keep the same U12 course Al. Hopefully an FRA committee member can clarify the situation.
    When the FRA and the other Home Country Fell/Hill/Mountain Running bodies agreed on metrication the proposals were submitted to UKA through the UKA Mountain Running Advisory Group. The proposals were submitted in terms of the changes which would be required in 2012 to the "Fell & Hill Running Rules" in the UKA "Rules for Competition" ie Rules 400 to 412 including Rule 410 on the Junior Age Limits. A decision was made not to use fractions of kilometres and the values decided on are those given in the current "FRA Rules for Competition". For U16s it was considered more appropriate to round the limit up (from 4miles/6.4km) to 7km rather than round it down. The other distances were rounded to the nearest kilometre. These proposals have since been accepted by UKA.

    When the updated UKA Rules are published in April 2012 all the fell running distances will be the same as those in the FRA Rules and strictly metric.

    I sent race organisers a copy of the metricated FRA "Rules for Competition" with their 2012 Permit Application forms in Sept. 2011.

    Margaret Chippendale
    FRA Fixtures Secretary
    Last edited by FRAFixtures; 16-02-2012 at 05:20 PM.

  3. #113
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    Re: Development of Young Athle

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrump View Post
    Thank you Margaret,
    An oasis of knowledge, facts, and your usual common sense, in a desert of mis-information. :thumbup:
    You remind me of a Political Adviser - a sort of Alistair Campbell type - you can claim to be right even when there's nothing to back it up.
    A "desert of mis-information" - really

  4. #114

    Re: Development of Young Athle

    I sent race organisers a copy of the metricated FRA "Rules for Competition" with their 2012 Permit Application forms in Sept. 2011.

    Margaret Chippendale
    FRA Fixtures Secretary[/QUOTE]

    You did indeed Margaret of that there is no doubt I just didnt look to closely at it in relation to Coiners ( the race I used to illustrate the point) as it isnt being put on this year. Clearly i will look at it more closely for next. I assume though there will be other ROs who may had had some o ftheir junior routes nbang on the upper limits before who will have to hava thnk if they havent already.
    "Moors are a stage for the performance of heaven"

  5. #115
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    Re: Development of Young Athle

    What an interesting, and long, thread.

    I've been thinking about these very matters for some time, both in fellrunning and orienteering. Most of what I think has been discussed here already, but it has given me a chance to reflect on it all. So, here is my current view.

    In terms of developing juniors, we have to think about what they want out of their sport. There are a number of answers to this, I think these build up one on top of the other:
    • Some just want to have fun with their mates, and do some running at the same time
    • Some want to get fit
    • Some want to race
    • Some want to win

    The first item on this list is the most important. However, as coaches, we would quite like to see our charges race and do well. At our coaches meetings, we tend to have to remind ourselves that we have to provide a sensible service for everyone. Like most of the junior running groups, I think we do this pretty well, as our numbers keep increasing.

    So long as everyone at our training sessions is having a good, hard work out, and keeps coming back, then we are succeeding.

    When we think about racing there are a number of issues.

    First, are the juniors racing for themselves or are they racing for someone else?

    Generally speaking, if it is the latter, then there is something wrong. There are some occasions when this is OK. If the club enters a team in a relay, then a runner may be asked to race for that team. It is possible that he doesn't really like racing, but is prepared to have a go for his mates. As long as he is always given the opportunity to say "no, I don't want to race", and it doesn't happen very often, this type of peer pressure is usually fine.

    As a club, we have a closed club championships. We try to make this compulsory, but those that don't want to race simply don't turn up. The reason we do this is to encourage all our runners to have a go at racing in a safe environment. If they have never raced, they don't know what it is like, and this puts many people off. We make a big thing of this, with prizes and a lunch for runners and parents. Generally, we get a good athlete over to present the prizes.

    Second, what are the race series trying to achieve?

    There are a number of potentially conflicting answers to this:
    1. To find the best juniors at each age class in each year. This is a sufficient reason in itself. It is a huge thing for some kids to win the English Champs. It is possible that they will never win anything else and may well drop out of the sport. If they do, at least they will have achieved something excellent that they can look back on with pride. They can also use it to show what organised and committed people they are. We have not failed if someone stops running as a teenager, unless it is our coaching that has forced them to.
    2. To select juniors for International teams. International races tend to be shorter, with easier terrain, than our championship races. (Or at least that is what I am lead to believe from the fact that CCR was asked to not let U18s run too far at Coiners - that was NEVER something I would have said to him!) The International selectors want really fast runners that can cope over rather shorter distances. They argue that racing on rough fell races all the time makes their potential runners slower - not an argument that seems to wash with Steve Vernon or the Brownlees.
    3. To develop junior runners to the point that they become senior runners and carry on. This is quite a big argument in favour of supporting junior development within the FRA. The FRA is age top heavy. Some younger members are going to be useful at some point. I'll come back to this issue shortly.
    4. To give juniors the opportunity to enjoy racing in the fells. This might well be the best reason of them all. This is why I do fellrunning, and I suspect the motivation for most of us. We just love being out on the fells, pushing ourselves to achieve something that is really hard.


    If we are looking to develop juniors who will come into senior fellrunning, then does the current race series do that? Well, it does to a certain extent. With the distance limits, we can get U18s running up to 10Km now. This means that they should be alright doing any short race. However, the difference between an U18 race and, say Scafell Pike, is quite significant. U18 races are all flagged; they do not have to carry kit and they do not have to really take responsibility for their own safety. At Scafell Pike, for instance, they will have to find their way to the top and back; they will have to carry kit and they have to be able to make sensible decisions about their own safety. If they can do these three things, then the step up to AM races is really only a matter of being able to cope with the extra distance.

    As you will know, I am heavily involved with coaching orienteering as well as fellrunning. It is worth contrasting an U18 fell race with an M18 championship orienteering race. As in fellrunning, most M18 runners have come up through the junior ranks. They have developed their skills to the point that they are pretty skilled at navigation in complex terrain in all conditions and their levels of fitness are increasing. To run in the British Champs they have to be a National Member of British Orienteering. This year’s M18E race at the British Championships will be held at Eskdale, on the open slopes below Scafell. The race will be 11.2 K, probably with 3-400m climb. The winner is expected to take around 70-80 minutes, meaning that other runners are likely to take up to 2 hours. Girls are given a somewhat shorter course, but the winning time is still likely to be around 60 minutes. There are shorter courses for those that want them, but they are no less technically difficult.

    I remember the risk assessment section of my FMR2 course very clearly. When we were asked if we would allow a group of runners to run out of sight behind some trees, all the orienteers there said “Yes!” and all the fellrunners said “No!” On the course we were told that UKA’s view was that we shouldn’t let them out of sight. I was pretty sure that this advice was wrong. When I followed this up with UKA’s Health and Safety person he, first of all, said that if this was the case, fell races and XC races would cease to exist, as the number of marshals required to keep everyone in sight at all times would be ridiculous. He went on to say that the answer should have been “It depends”. If the group was mainly experienced and knew what they were doing, then it would be fine. If the group was 7 year olds that had never done it before, then you might want to think again.

    Clearly, fellrunning and orienteering have different views on what is and isn’t safe for juniors. I think that fellrunning errs too far on the side of caution. I also think that orienteering is often too lax. I am always amazed when I am one of a very small group of people to wear a bumbag with a cag in it, even when the cloud is down, the rain sheeting in and we are on top of an exposed hill.

    In getting U18s ready to run senior races, we have to ensure that they begin to learn how to find their way round in a race – this doesn’t always mean being able to navigate, but it does really help. We have to get them used to the idea that they have to carry survival kit and know when to put it on. They have to learn a certain amount of mountain craft. They need to know what to do when things start turning difficult, e.g. the clouds come in, the rain sets in and it gets cold, they get disorientated. They can only get these skills through being out in the mountains, preferably with people that are more experienced.

    Can we begin to build this into the U18 champs races? Probably not. We have no way of knowing who will enter a race. They may be coming from a track background, be very fit, but with no clue about the fells. They may just be on holiday and fancy a run. It is these people we have to be very careful about. This sort of thing cannot happen in orienteering champs because of the membership requirement (although that doesn’t preclude a member running above their ability level).

    So, this leaves the more adventurous U18 wishing to run AS races, and some wanting to run AM races. The distance rules preclude U18s from running AMs. What development purpose is there for them to do these races? If they want to spend more time on the fells, then they can – no-one is stopping them – but I think they should be discouraged from racing.

    If they enter AS races, then this leaves the RO feeling that they are in a difficult position. The race rules state that the safety of U18s is the RO’s responsibility. Because of the way Junior races are organised, and flagged, the assumption might be that U18s should only be allowed to race where this is the case, leaving RO’s of unflagged races nervous. However, we have seen that orienteering copes with unflagged excursions onto the fells without any problems. RO’s should take heart from this. If they are very careful to check that the U18s are fit enough; experienced enough and have all the correct kit, then, in my view, so long as they take special care to check that everyone has arrived back safely, then they are OK.

    I originally started writing this thinking that some U18s should be allowed to run in AMs with prior permission from the Junior Committee. I now think that this is not a sensible solution. U18s need to get mountain savvy if they want to move into the senior ranks. They do not need to do this in races.

    As coaches, we should perhaps take on some responsibility for encouraging our U18 to get out onto the fells, with others. Perhaps introduce them to some navigation skills – there are lots of orienteering clubs around that would be glad to link up and help. There is a plan to have some navigation practice at the Junior Do this year. Maybe take TurboTom’s suggestion, and make U18s carry kit in all their races.

    Well, this has been a very long post, sorry. I hope it provides a slightly different perspective. It has certainly helped me to clarify my views on the matter.

  6. #116
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    Re: Development of Young Athle

    Jake goes out because he enjoys this ! it helps with the autism because he can be himself run how he likes and no one cares or notices , well some people do stare which is rude some people don't even acknowledge or speak to Jake when he says hello
    Jake use's fell running to get to places he wants to explore or just for the sake of getting out.
    I think that although Jake can navigate in very poor condition's - both at night and combined with mist or driving snow/rain Jake represents a minority these skills take practice and experience to build up ,
    Jake may or may not join a club , Jake is not sure if they would be enjoyable at the moment,
    it would be nice that Jake could join me on a race , Jake would just like to opportunity to explore and enjoy different parts of the county as well as where he is based !
    http://jakeofwinterhill.blogspot.com/


  7. #117
    Senior Member Chris K's Avatar
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    Re: Development of Young Athle

    Stayed up for hours reading this thread! Some years ago our Safety & Navigation courses were started with the intention of helping younger/inexperienced runners develop mountain skills. The courses still run, are generally over subscribed, junior runners though are very rarely seen. Learning the basics, practising and carrying kit, should be an essential goal to achieve on the way to longer races/solo training runs.
    A circular route mostly downhill

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