Development of Young Athletes

[Witton Park]

A few years ago, my daughter's school got to the final of the English Schools Cross Country Cup. The Year 7/8 Girls was won by a girl from Harrogate who plays for Leeds called Leah Galton who still plays for Leeds but no longer runs the XC that I can see.

There's another Lancs girl who won the County Schools Inter Girls XC last year who is a footballer.

But my experience is that the football coaches are delighted for them to train with us until around 13-14 for fitness, they are reluctant to let them compete and as they get beyond 14 they actually block them competing.

I have many experiences of football for boys and girls where the athlete is told that :-

1. If they miss the football training they will not be considered for selection.
2. If they are selected and don't go, even if on the bench, they will not get selected next time.

It's a real pressure - a pressure that we do not exert on our athletes.

To what end as well? The vast majority get thrown on the scrap heap and playing for a pub team.

Does athletics have to get more ruthless? I don't like the idea of it, but I also don't like being used.

Take the example of a young footballer, been with us for 2 - 3 years. They have yet to take part in any club race. Always the excuse is a match or training. Yet on a Saturday morning at 12:30pm just before Xmas (the same time as our league XC races) that same athlete was able to compete for the school in the Town Schools XC Champs.
Coincidence that the only 2 Saturdays between October and March for 2 seasons so far have been the town schools where football has not been an issue.

I bet they manage to run at the County Schools a week on Saturday as well.

It makes me feel like a mug sometimes.

[manothemoors]

A few years ago, my daughter's school got to the final of the English Schools Cross Country Cup. The Year 7/8 Girls was won by a girl from Harrogate who plays for Leeds called Leah Galton who still plays for Leeds but no longer runs the XC that I can see.

There's another Lancs girl who won the County Schools Inter Girls XC last year who is a footballer.

But my experience is that the football coaches are delighted for them to train with us until around 13-14 for fitness, they are reluctant to let them compete and as they get beyond 14 they actually block them competing.

I have many experiences of football for boys and girls where the athlete is told that :-

1. If they miss the football training they will not be considered for selection.
2. If they are selected and don't go, even if on the bench, they will not get selected next time.

It's a real pressure - a pressure that we do not exert on our athletes.

To what end as well? The vast majority get thrown on the scrap heap and playing for a pub team.

Does athletics have to get more ruthless? I don't like the idea of it, but I also don't like being used.

Take the example of a young footballer, been with us for 2 - 3 years. They have yet to take part in any club race. Always the excuse is a match or training. Yet on a Saturday morning at 12:30pm just before Xmas (the same time as our league XC races) that same athlete was able to compete for the school in the Town Schools XC Champs.
Coincidence that the only 2 Saturdays between October and March for 2 seasons so far have been the town schools where football has not been an issue.

I bet they manage to run at the County Schools a week on Saturday as well.

It makes me feel like a mug sometimes.

Yep, we get a bit of that too (at the track). To be honest, I can't really blame the kids and enjoy working with them even if they are not allowed by their footie team to compete. I know that it upsets some of the Harriers coaches though.

[Clash City Rocker]

WP and MOTM thats about choice on one level but its also about bigger forces. The lure of the big money. My middle son is a decent footballer and I have done some fitness work with his team of u13 who havent a clue to be honest. They have been conditioned already into believing that they are going to be successful (rich) footballers and behave as such. Some of his team are for the most part rude and untalented and supremely unfit yet and deluded. Its sports such as football and to be honest I cant really think of another that have the control. If a kid does both athletics and football then they will chose football every time because they are told to not just by coaches and parents but by society we are constantly told of the high life footballers and theyre wags live which is sadly pushed as something to aspire too. Its hard to challeneg that "choice"

[Clash City Rocker]

Yep, we get a bit of that too (at the track). To be honest, I can't really blame the kids and enjoy working with them even if they are not allowed by their footie team to compete. I know that it upsets some of the Harriers coaches though.

TBF running anywhere other than the track and Xc can upset some coaches. I do feel that some athletics clubs and coaches can be too much for the team and not enough for the athlete. Team success should never outway the needs of the individual

[manothemoors]

WP and MOTM thats about choice on one level but its also about bigger forces. The lure of the big money. My middle son is a decent footballer and I have done some fitness work with his team of u13 who havent a clue to be honest. They have been conditioned already into believing that they are going to be successful (rich) footballers and behave as such. Some of his team are for the most part rude and untalented and supremely unfit yet and deluded. Its sports such as football and to be honest I cant really think of another that have the control. If a kid does both athletics and football then they will chose football every time because they are told to not just by coaches and parents but by society we are constantly told of the high life footballers and theyre wags live which is sadly pushed as something to aspire too. Its hard to challeneg that "choice"

Indeed. I know parents who have ££s for eyeballs already as their child football star is "Signed" to a Premiership club.,,,aged 9!!! He is very very good, but, heavens above...he's 9. He can no longer play Junior football with his mates or with school. It stinks.
I'd love to see athletics holding some glamour again (was Nick Rose ever that glamorous??? not sure) but I'd hate for the sport to end up as dominated by the promise of mind-boggling riches as football is. However, it is shuffling in some middle ground between amateurism and professionalism at the moment...perhaps the Corinthian spirit has been lost somewhere, whilst the opportunities for at least earning a crust at the sport are still limited to a small pool of athletes worldwide.
Look at road cycling though. It only takes for one or two home nations athletes to rise to the top and suddenly everyone wants to know. Maybe, if the Brownlees win Gold we'll be inundated with young tri-athletes wanting to improve their off-road endurance running. Mo mania might take hold. Jenny Meadows/Paula might get it right this time.

One thing I do know is that the children at the track are generally pleasant, polite kids...like you say CCR, that can't always be said of the footballists.

[manothemoors]

TBF running anywhere other than the track and Xc can upset some coaches. I do feel that some athletics clubs and coaches can be too much for the team and not enough for the athlete. Team success should never outway the needs of the individual

I think I said something similar earlier. With regard to the "some coaches" comment, as you know I work with a coach who has an outlook that might be interpreted like that....however, I know that his "reasoning" has the individual athlete very much at heart, not the club....whether we agree with him or not.

[LissaJous]

Is it too simplistic to discuss it as juniors / seniors?

It's all gone quiet here! I think most of us are reading from the same script, one of enjoyment, participation, and giving any kids we get to work with mental and physical skills they can apply to fellrunning, to other sports, and to other areas of their lives.

If we're looking to define and improve the framework, perhaps a 4-way split is better:
Juniors > Teenagers > 18s-U20/23s > Adults

Teenagers need a gradual increase in all aspects of their training, within limits for their age and abilities, otherwise there's nothing to hold their interest, and nothing for them to learn from coming along to training. This is when most will drop out, and I wouldn't hesitate to stop teenagers coming along if they weren't taking it seriously (they are allowed to have fun as well of course!)

18s-U20/23s have a lot to deal with, leaving school and many going to uni. Also, those that stay in athletics are more likely to look outside of fellrunning. This is partly a result of prestige competition options, partly the priorities of many running clubs, especially at Uni, and partly (say if you disagree here!) that they're put off by the adult fellrunning scene, where ALs are generally seen as the most important races.

I think the idea of making selected Medium races were available to U18s, given a reputable coach's letter, is a very good one.

I'm also reminded of a thought I had a year or two ago, triggered by my answer to the 'What's your favourite kind of race?' question. The answer is Lake District AMs, which I see as the Half-Marathons of fell-running. As such, they're hard, but there's nothing wrong with doing quite a few of them in a year. I counted about 15 serious contenders for my list, and thought a series based on these would be fantastic ~ taking only the best 5 or so results, and maybe a small bonus for doing another 2 (possibly a penalty for doing over 10!). A series like this might be more appealing to U23s than the Lakeland Classics or the FRA champs?

But against even that idea, many of the newly- or not-quite-18 year olds I've talked to in the last 2 years have strugged even in longer Short category races.

Is anyone else of the opinion that the U23 category in the FRA championships isn't quite working? Especially not for the women?

LissaJous is Lauren Jeska

[Eleanor]

I'm also reminded of a thought I had a year or two ago, triggered by my answer to the 'What's your favourite kind of race?' question. The answer is Lake District AMs, which I see as the Half-Marathons of fell-running. As such, they're hard, but there's nothing wrong with doing quite a few of them in a year. I counted about 15 serious contenders for my list, and thought a series based on these would be fantastic ~ taking only the best 5 or so results, and maybe a small bonus for doing another 2 (possibly a penalty for doing over 10!). A series like this might be more appealing to U23s than the Lakeland Classics or the FRA champs?

LissaJous is Lauren Jeska

Lauren I really like that idea

[AndyA]

I'm also reminded of a thought I had a year or two ago, triggered by my answer to the 'What's your favourite kind of race?' question. The answer is Lake District AMs, which I see as the Half-Marathons of fell-running. As such, they're hard, but there's nothing wrong with doing quite a few of them in a year. I counted about 15 serious contenders for my list, and thought a series based on these would be fantastic ~ taking only the best 5 or so results, and maybe a small bonus for doing another 2 (possibly a penalty for doing over 10!). A series like this might be more appealing to U23s than the Lakeland Classics or the FRA champs?

But against even that idea, many of the newly- or not-quite-18 year olds I've talked to in the last 2 years have strugged even in longer Short category races.

LissaJous is Lauren Jeska

I agree that AM class racing is much more accessible than AL. I also agree with your earlier comment regarding the (unwelcome/macho/masochistic) obsession with AL races. There are parallels with Triathlon, which I'm also involved in. Tough middle distance races (similar to half-ironman) are proving much more popular with age group athletes (as opposed to elite nationals) than long distance (Ironman type) events; again because you can compete in several of them in a year, rather than target an entire year against one or maybe two races.

I'd be a bit worried about coaches being allowed to recommend U18 runners for M class races, even if they are 'reputable'. It opens the doors for parents to apply unwelcome pressure with potentially unpleasant and/or litigious consequences. The advantage of fixed rules, set by a third party is that they are backed by insurance underwriting and are unarguable.

Some clubs can be obsessed with competition and it can put juniors off, whether U18 or U8. It frankly wouldn't worry me if our U8-U12 runners never did any races, as long as they turn up regularly to training, work hard and have a good time. It's all about building a sound base so that they can compete and be competitive when they do get older and more capable.

[Witton Park]

But against even that idea, many of the newly- or not-quite-18 year olds I've talked to in the last 2 years have strugged even in longer Short category races.


LissaJous is Lauren Jeska

On this particular point Lauren, when you look at the Junior FRA, they are usually 4 milers (as they are in with the U16s for convenience) and the senior race attached is sometimes over the 6 mile limit.
In the last couple of years the introduction of Clougha and Pendle have meant there have been some separate and longer U18 races.

But they go from U18 where they run typically 30-35 minutes and mix it with 20-25 min XC races and 1500m/3K track and then turn 18 and often aren't prepared for the step up.

Part of that is the messages from on high that come out preaching the LTAD and creating an impression that we can become world beaters of 3 or 4 days a week and low mileage.

The proposal I mentioned to allow some U18 and perhaps U16s to do selected over distance races with coaches approval would help to address that, but ultimately the athletes in these ages need to be doing more earlier in my opinion.

I sort of like the idea of the Lakeland AM series for 18 - 23s, perhaps with 3 races. Certainly Anniversary Waltz would be a good introductory race and I intend to make use of it for Beckie this year all being well, just for her to treat it as a training run for experience.
Fairfield would be another that I think would be a good race for a 18 year old.