Age limits

[Graham Breeze]

Apolgies FJ, but well written anyway!
So it's an 'esteemed opinion' rather than a 'semi-formal confirmation'. And here was me thinking it was an early Xmas present.

Over and out (I'm off to do FatherCrimbo duties, wink wink)
Ho ho ho
Happy Xmas

What FJ posts is invariably sensible and right; although I suppose my endorsement will be the kiss of death to his reputation.

Happy Christmas!

[Witton Park]

Quite strange that this thread has a habit of losing posts, so that anyone reading through it will be a bit confused at the lack of continuity in some parts of the thread.
Not just from one poster either - several posts have been deleted.

I hope that's not a cynical attempt on anyone's part to cover one's tracks :sneaky:

All the posts of the last few days seem to serve is that there is total ambiguity at the moment as to what the operative date is in the junior fell races in particular, but also it has to be said in some of the seniors.
If an ex Junior Co-ordinator, ex Chair and still committee man, and FJunior all have slightly different takes on the situation, then how can the rest be expected to deal with this.
Post 107 Lecky - unless otherwise specified age on 1/1/13
Post 111 Breezy - age on day unless otherwise stated.
Post 127 FJ - paragraph 3 - the RO can be expected to make the entrants aware of the qualifying date (ie either of the above really)

I haven't looked at them all, but I've checked around a dozen junior races and only 2 identify the date of the age calculation. One is the Stretton FRA Junior race and one is my Trail Relays and they both have different dates.

As OB1 states, it is not a satisfactory situation that we turn up on the day and find out on arrival. Juniors do recce as well you know and so need to know what race they are supposed to do.

NB. Perhaps adding it on the permit application form would be a good idea?

There probably wasn't anything wrong with rule 10, or with the new rule 10, but it is a fact that it lead to a precedent in junior fell running that FJ touched on that races aligned to these dates.
I still think that what fell running lacks that other endurance disciplines have is age group rules such as I set out on an earlier post.

[OB1]

Sorry, facetious I know, but I can't help thinking of all the funny permutations of this vague rule and convention thing, now that the established 'status quo' (as someone nicely put it) convention is in doubt. We now have a hole in the fence that needs mending.

Maybe a more apt analogy is that there has been a hole in the fence (rules) for a long time. It’s just that the feeding trough (rule 10) has been covering the hole nicely, and acting, by convention as a pseudo-fence. There's been a gap we can sneak through but few have found the gap unless they have been looking (unconventinal champ series). Now the trough has been replaced by a brand new shiny one at the other end of the field next to the gate to the bigger grassier field (Seniors), so the hole is more visible. We can either mend the hole or we can ask all those inside the fence to just ignore it, and to calmly walk past it on their way to feed at the trough. It seems like we need the hole so that some of us (unconventional races) can get in and out of the hole if we want to, but most of us (by convention) are encouraged to stay inside. In any case it will cost too much to mend the hole (UKA & insurance?). Maybe someone could come up with a simple device that we could put across the hole, that cannot be opened willy nilly. A kissing gate, stile, or something?

[OB1]

[ Another breakfast moment – this time, on this day, by household convention, over Porridge not Muesli].

As OB1 states, it is not a satisfactory situation that we turn up on the day and find out on arrival. Juniors do recce as well you know and so need to know what race they are supposed to do.

NB. Perhaps adding it on the permit application form would be a good idea?

There probably wasn't anything wrong with rule 10, or with the new rule 10, but it is a fact that it lead to a precedent in junior fell running that FJ touched on that races aligned to these dates.
I still think that what fell running lacks that other endurance disciplines have is age group rules such as I set out on an earlier post.

Actually, worse than that a Junior might turn up all togged up, excited on the day, and yet not be able to run at all, despite being old enough on the day of the race to safely cover the distance of the race, as far as ‘safely’ is defined in rule 10, just because of the combination of lack of a age group rule and lack of clarity in pre-race literature. And it might not only be he/her who’s impacted either.

*********
Leia (currently 9 and turning 10 on Feb 1^st 2013) and her sisters Padme and Shmi (twins, currently 11 turning 12 in July 2013) are looking forward to entering ‘Team WEKTRAC’¹ into the Witton Park Junior Trail Relay on 3^rd Feb 2013, in the 10/11 age category, instead of having to watch their dad run Lad’s Leap. Fortunately for TEAM WEKTRAC and their guardian and sponsor (taxi firm Kenobi), the nice folks who organise the WP event have kindly stated in the FRA calendar that the age categories for the event are determined by ‘age on the day’.

*********
Now imagine if the date was not clear in the pre-race literature. WEKTRAC got up early on Sunday morning 3^rd Feb 2013 (and boy, Sunday morning lie-ins are precious), got bundled into their taxi, fought the mid-winter blizzards around the M60 and rocked into WP, only to find that according to the registration desk the criteria was actually age as at 1^st Jan 2013.
“Oh dear, Leia, I’m sorry princess but you can’t enter this one, even though you’re 10, next year maybe”.
“ I’m sure Uncle B told me that if in doubt we should assume age on day, maybe that’s not the case”.
“Oh dear Padme and Shmi, you’ll have to hunt around for someone to replace Leia if you are going to run this one. Look I’ll stop the meter whilst we work out what to do. If we’re quick we can get back to Longdendale and you can watch your dad run Lads Leap, that will be a treat”.
Leia’s pretty quick for her age though (no pun intended); “I’ve been reading the change to rule 10. WP is only a 2.8km race, and I thought when I turned 10 I’d be Under 12 not Under 10 and that I could run an U12 FRA race less than 3km if I was 10 on the day of the race? Anyway, next year (2014 event calendar) we won’t be able to enter WEKTRAC either cos Padme and Shmi will be 12 and will move up. Oh, dear, maybe we should rethink the whole idea about putting team WEKTRAC into FRA events, I’m just not up to it am I?”.
Taxi firm Kenobi: “Well actually Leia, it’s down to the RO. For some races in this year’s FRA calendar you will have to run in the U10 and for others you’ll have to run in the U12. In fact you might find that you can do one race in March as U10, another race in April as U12 and then in May a different one as U10 again. Best of both worlds see. It all makes sense if you read the rules carefully and just follow the RO literature carefully, or ring them up if you are not clear. Apparently, it’s always been that way, although now the difference between age groups and distance limits is more apparent, and its less easy to make any logical assumption as to what the age limit might be, if it’s not stated pre-race, as before it was assumed by most to be 1^st Jan. You see, simple isn't it”.

***********
On Boxing Day afternoon 2012, Leia, Padme, and Shmi sit down to plan their 2013 ‘in-house WEKTRAC Junior Champs’ events and also to submit a taxi booking schedule to Kenobi. They have a shiny calendar each (thanks to Margaret and Britta, and a standing order Family Membership sponsored by Kenobi), so there’s no squabbling. Just lots of pensive gestures and end-of-pen-chewing.
Padmi: “So, for these events where no age group criteria is stated in the Calendar, do you think that we should ring around all the RO, or maybe even just make one call to a FRA Committee member?”
Shmi: “Well maybe, although waking them up from their Boxing Day siesta might be a bit cruel don’t you think? I’m sure there must be a post somewhere on the FRA forum that explains all this. The rule change has been known for a while now”
Leia: “I vote that we text a reputable member of the Committee. I’ve heard about these forums and I’m staying well clear till I’m a Senior. That’s what mummy says I should do anyway. But the question is who should we text?”

***********
¹ WEKTRAC – ‘WE Know The Rules and Conventions’

***********
PS. Anyway, I'm off to Bleaklow now, before the girls get up, and primed to make that text message when I get back for lunch.

[TheGrump]

This post has been deleted due to:*
not being read in full/ deliberately being misunderstood/ being misquoted/ being quoted out of context/ statement of the unacceptable obvious/ denial by others of irrefutable facts/ gratuitous insults/ loss of patience/ being insufficiently fanciful/ other posts being far more entertaining/ not making the slightest difference to the debate/ not being what other contributors want to hear/ being perceived as patronising/ being written by a committee member/ desire to perpetuate conspiracy theories.

That just about covers it.

*delete as appropriate.

[Witton Park]

This post has been deleted due to:*
not being read in full/ deliberately being misunderstood/ being misquoted/ being quoted out of context/ statement of the unacceptable obvious/ denial by others of irrefutable facts/ gratuitous insults/ loss of patience/ being insufficiently fanciful/ other posts being far more entertaining/ not making the slightest difference to the debate/ not being what other contributors want to hear/ being perceived as patronising/ being written by a committee member/ desire to perpetuate conspiracy theories.

That just about covers it.

*delete as appropriate.

In the case of your deleted post I would suggest none of the above.

[OB1]

[Spanish omelette for this morning’s episode, with turkey bits and flecks of sprouts]:

Taxi firm Kenobi (during the drive back from WP down the M66, round the M60 and along the M67 to Longdendale):

“Oh Leia darling don’t cry, it is not your fault, take deep yogic breaths. Now I didn’t want to tell you this bit, and embarrass you all by causing a fuss in front of the registration desk and that nice RO, but you’re big girls now so you might as well know, warts and all, what I heard your dad saying to Uncle B. With the old Rule 10, no RO had the right (without good reason) within a given FRA Fixtures Calendar year (fell running season) to deny any of you entry to run a fell race that we all had already deemed - under Rule 10 - you were old enough to run safely, providing that you and I kept to the rules. Unfortunately, so I hear, that situation was far too inconvenient for some of us grown-ups who wanted to give you the chance, on some occasions, to run with the Seniors as soon as you could do so safely. So I’m afraid Rule 10 just had to change, Princess. Now when you get to 14 and your sisters are nearly 16, you might just understand why that had to happen, for everyone’s benefit. We’ve all got to grow up sometime you see.”

Leia, drying her eyes: “Oh Kenobi, you’re so helpful and really do look after us don’t you, and let us into grown- up things. But let’s give up this Motorway Malarkey on a weekend, and let's stick to the Glossop Swimming Club, the Stalybridge Celtic Juniors football, the East Cheshire Harriers Track, Field, & XC, Torside Sailing Club, and the Woodbank & Marple Parkruns. At least we know where we stand with them don’t we? We can always do a bit of casual fell running when we go on holiday to Wales with dad or Uncle B can’t we, and then we can just run, like we do every other day on our way to school with you on the days when you’re not dropping us off in the car on your drive to work”.

“You know what Princess, that’s not such a bad idea the way petrol prices are going. We’ll put it to the vote at a WEKTRAC-EGM shall we? It might even mean a bit more loose change for pocket money too. I’m sure your dad will be sympathetic. Speaking of which, I wonder how he got on at Lad’s Leap – d’you think he’s finished yet, given that the winners should just be getting up to receive their prizes? ”

Leia, smiling mischievously; “Na, you mean ‘how’s he getting on’ don’t you. I think he’ll still be stuck in the quarry, he’s a Vet now you know. I bet he’s just ahead of Uncle B for once though, cos dad's better at the rough and tumble scrambling bits. Uncle B is more refined you see, like an old port.”

Padme smiles at Leia and turns to whisper to Shmi; “See, I told you she’d come round before we got home, tough as old Walshes our Leia”.

[OB1]

[Granola and yoghurt for a change. I’ve not had granola for a while, but found some whilst clearing out the kitchen cupboards yesterday. Very fine on detail is granola, and apparently good for writer's block.]

***********
Princess Leia has been busy off and on, in-between watching the special extended DVD edition of The Fellowship of The Ring (F-o-TR) with her twin sisters, trying to put a draft schedule of 2013 Junior fell races together for team WEKTRAC. As de-facto WEKTRAC Fixtures Secretary she doesn’t mind doing this; she has cannily worked out that the rule change for 2013 allows her to maximise her chances of running with and competing against her sisters in the U12 (10/11) events this year (if not next) if she can find enough races between 1^st Feb (her birthday) and the end of July (theirs) that base their age criteria as ‘age on day’ (AOD her mind suggests for a new acronym, though not to be confused with EOD she notes). She’s not sure if this opportunity is intentional within the fell fraternity rules and conventions or just a side effect of these, but it came to her in a quality moment whilst eating a chocolate out of the tin of NQS (Nestle Quality Street) that they had just received for Christmas from Auntie Lisa. She’s no idea if many RO like this opportunity, but it seems a good one to her. Mummy agrees with Leia that such a schedule would slot in nicely after the ongoing XC season, would minimise clashes for Taxi Firm Kenobi (TFK), and would be finished before the school summer holidays.

When Leia explains this strategy to her dad as he comes down off the hill for a game of footy with her in the yard, he smiles and says:
‘Canny lass...yes, but as TFK may have said to you already, just be aware that many of those races that don’t say AOD in the literature may be based on age on 1^st Jan even if they don’t specifically say so, and so you’d be traditionally U10. In this respect be particularly aware of those races that are part of this year’s FRA English Junior Championships (EJC), because they have a special convention of their own given on page 108 if you’ve got that far in the handbook yet. Think of it as a special rule for a special group of RO to make their life easier in the year they are chosen to be special. The specific EJC races can change each year (just like your WEKTRAC counters can change) so don’t just ask your cousin Luke which EJC races he did last year, look at the list on page 108. But also be aware that for some other races, even if you end up in the U10 category you still might get to compete with your sisters who will be in the U12 category, because both groups can run together if the race distance doesn’t break Rule 10. Some RO (both special and un-special ones) like this format as it limits the standing around they do and the number of times the marshals have to raise their arms from out of their pockets. S that gives you some flexibility. But I also suggest that you make a note against events that just say ‘Junior races for all ages’ because that suggests that the RO might not yet be familiar with all the rules and conventions, or he/she might be just plain unconventional and not that bothered anyway. Such RO are treasured by the FRA as being really special to our fell running heritage, super-special in fact.’

Leia has so far got to about page 54 (end of April) in the 2013 Calendar. She’s chosen WP-JTR on 3^rd Feb as the ideal opening counter for obvious reasons [don’t snigger reader] as its both AOD and EOD. There is also the INOV-8 High Cup Nick on 23^rd Feb (AOD & EOD) and Ilkley Moor on 24^th Feb (EOD). She’s not sure which of these to go for as the second WEKTRAC race. The latter is not clear about AOD, but she suspects from the distance (1.6 km) and the calendar entry that as dad suggests the U10 will probably run with the U12 and possibly the U14 too – she’ll have to get TFK to double-check with the RO. She’d like to go with Ilkley, as she can pop into her granny’s in Calderdale on the way back (and Ilkley - or was it Bingley - is where granny met danky you know). Leia also knows that her dad has this thing about INOV-8, and that TFK has a thing against long journeys up the M6, even when they are to lovely Dufton Village Hall and the Stag Inn.

Leia has noticed a series of events in April called the Bunny Runs (BR). Dad has heard about them and although he’s never run one he has friends who have, and he also says that Uncle B recently took their cousin Luke to a BR when Luke was 13. Leia particularly likes the look of the BR, as although they are not at weekends they have lovely prizes – Easter Eggs (when Leia was 6 she used to want to work in a chocolate factory). Her excitement subsides, however, when she sees that they are 4.8km events for over 12 only in line with Rule 10. Now, she’s jogged around a 5k Parkrun ‘time trial’ before, chasing her dad in a gorilla outfit and TFK pushing a buggy, but she’s never raced that far eyeballs out. She suspects neither TFK nor her dad would let WEKTRAC knowingly break the FRA rules at a BR. Maybe when Padme and Shmi are old enough to do it she can sneak in with them, or maybe get Uncle B to take her with Luke, as he’s generally less strict with these things than TFK. Talking to Uncle B he tells Leia that he’s heard that this sort of thing can happen at some events without the RO being able to do too much on the day, except to ensure that the registration desk has received the necessary signed entry forms from all guardians.

Uncle B points out to Leia that although he’s not formally their guardian they are part of the same family tree, and he’ll always look after her anywhere. He draws her attention to a special BR event on April 23^rd, listed in the Calendar as a BR Relay for Over 10 with ‘all three legs at 3.2 km’ [is that total or each, must mean each surely, as its not divisible by 3?], and where everyone wins a prize. This has got Leia’s mind reeling. Perhaps team WEKTRAC can enter this one and forge ahead from the front? She does have a small niggle at the back of her mind, however, about not just their ages (be it now or on the day) but how the 3.2 km distance lines up with Rule 10. Padme and Shmi are 11 both on 1^st Jan and on the day, so are Over 10 but Under 12, would they be allowed to run this event? And if they did could Leia sneak in too? Let’s face it Uncle B could just say that they were triplets.

“Oh dear, this is why we need to talk to a reputable Committee member” Leia thinks. “But who should we call? Maybe I should just get TFK or dad to contact the BR-RO first? Where is dad anyway? He must have sneaked out whilst we were changing the F-o-TR DVD over from ‘Part 1-from Book to Vision’ to ‘Part 2-from Vision to Reality’. Now, how apt is that!”.

***********
Running out of recycled Christmas cracker materail, I could have done with a ghost-writer this morning, especially after being out last night running the Gloss Festive 10k Handicap and having some après in the Spinners Arms whilst chucking ideas around about our own 2013 Senior Club counters.
Up onto Bleaklow from Torside via Lawrence Edge I think this morning, to get away from a household all currently falling down with the winter flu bug. Sofa-bed for me last night so it won’t be quite a controlled test to compare against Boxing Day’s run up Wild Boar Clough.

[Witton Park]

I doubt that a ghost-writer would do you justice OB1. Within your creative efforts there are some quite serious issues raised.

What is an U14, U16, U18....?
UKA Rule 7 sets out Age Group rules for Track and Field, Road Running, Race Walking and Cross Country.

Fell Running doesn't have any age group rules and has previously worked on the well established precedent of 1/1 of each year in line with the junior champs, but no RO has been obliged to follow this and can create their own age categories and way of calculation.

It also seems that the Bunny Run Relay has been incorrectly permitted as under rule 10 there isn't a way that I can work out that "Age 10" can run a 3.2km leg. Is it 3.2km as it doesn't mention in the calendar?

You mentioned the English Champs. Although there is literature out there that explains that the English Champs are age as of 1/1/13, that isn't specified in terms of the actual races.
I'm sure they are, but shouldn't the champs races be declared as "Age as of 1/1/13" as Stretton has commendably done?

Rivington for example has the junior info embedded in the Senior info.
Rivington Senior race is "Age 16". On the day I assume as it is senior.
What of the junior races, it doesn't say.

I look forward to seeing Team WEKTRAC at Witton. Happy New Year

[OB1]

Thanks for picking some of the bones out of that.

I am only learning the ropes, rules, and conventions, gradually off the many eminent posts from all of you that have gone before on this thread, including use of liberal pinches of salt in reading and translating some of them. Sometimes in life we just have to put ourselves in the shoes of the people we should be trying to serve (I think AA said as much), the Juniors:

It also seems that the Bunny Run Relay has been incorrectly permitted as under rule 10 there isn't a way that I can work out that "Age 10" can run a 3.2km leg. Is it 3.2km as it doesn't mention in the calendar?

Indeed, that was WEKTRAC's thoughts - I have referenced the printed calendar (Over 10...All 3 legs 3.2 km/60m) which has more information than the online one. Not sure which takes precendence today though.

Maybe it was the simple result of a conversion rounding error at metrication? We'd have to go back to check.

************
Bleaklow-bowout due to nursing duties - just taken Ibuprofen up to OH. Kids sem to be recovering though.