Age limits

[Witton Park]

Question from me to FRA
Will race distances be set based on the age on day or Champs calculation?
A 13 year old U14 with a birthday of Feb 1st will be able to run over 7km in a junior open race after his birthday but only over 5km in a FRA Champs race.

An FRA spokesman replied
A U14 race would be not more than 5km as at present and a U16 race would be up to 7km. The runner you mention would normally run U14 in a championship series, but would be allowed to race up to 7km and at U16 (age 14/15) level in other races from Feb 1st. Under the proposed amendment they could technically run the U16 championship race (if the organiser allowed it), but would not then be able to qualify for the U14 championship.

So I anticipate a scenario where said athlete would arrive at a race faced with the option of running in the U14 Champs race or moving up to run in the 14/15 year old open race (on which the U16 champs race will piggy-back)

[Clash City Rocker]

I cant just see how this move will make things easier. As an RO of 3 junior races I am tempetd to just stick with age at 1st of Jan anyway, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) butthis arose out of considerable debate about the issue of older juniors and their progression through longer races to becoming seniors was it right that they could go from 6 mile races one day to any distance the next. I am not sure how this solution serves to address that problem. Initially looking at it its just going to be way more complicated for everyoine concerend from juniors to parents to RO's.
As FJ mentiosn there are notes available but to be honest I think it would be useful if there was a explanation of the rationale for this made here on the forum.

[Graham Breeze]

I cant just see how this move will make things easier. As an RO of 3 junior races I am tempetd to just stick with age at 1st of Jan anyway, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) butthis arose out of considerable debate about the issue of older juniors and their progression through longer races to becoming seniors was it right that they could go from 6 mile races one day to any distance the next. I am not sure how this solution serves to address that problem. Initially looking at it its just going to be way more complicated for everyoine concerend from juniors to parents to RO's.
As FJ mentiosn there are notes available but to be honest I think it would be useful if there was a explanation of the rationale for this made here on the forum.

The primary purpose behind the Rule Ten change is to reduce the number of breaches (whilst retaining the protective/welfare aspect underpinning the Rule) and since this rule is also UKA Rule 410 it could only be altered with the agreement of a broad consensus of the great and the good in the other home countries. It also makes more "sense" to regard juniors as the age they are rather than the age they were on 1st January.

UKA Rule 410 does not refer to Championships and age operative dates for them, or any individual race, can vary, as indeed they do now for eg international competitions, but the overriding Rules Ten/ 410 must apply and the FRA will take action following breaches: as indicated in the statement placed on page 75 of the current The Fellrunner by a Race Organiser.

[IainR]

but the overriding Rules Ten/ 410 must apply and the FRA will take action following breaches:.

Are you for real..

[Witton Park]

The primary purpose behind the Rule Ten change is to reduce the number of breaches (whilst retaining the protective/welfare aspect underpinning the Rule) and since this rule is also UKA Rule 410 it could only be altered with the agreement of a broad consensus of the great and the good in the other home countries. It also makes more "sense" to regard juniors as the age they are rather than the age they were on 1st January.

UKA Rule 410 does not refer to Championships and age operative dates for them, or any individual race, can vary, as indeed they do now for eg international competitions, but the overriding Rules Ten/ 410 must apply and the FRA will take action following breaches: as indicated in the statement placed on page 75 of the current The Fellrunner by a Race Organiser.

Graham, you really surprise me when you come on here with such wishy-washy stuff. For a man with your eloquence and clear knowledge it astounds me sometimes.

You seem to be saying that we will be looking to move to a system where in all races Age on Day will be the relevant factor - it makes more sense does it? Why? No one has really explained this.
If it makes more sense then we will soon see the other disciplines of athletics follow this sensible lead proposed by the FRA and maybe we'll see it expanded to other sports as well as they all seem to take the rather bonkers approach of having operative dates for age calculation. By the end of the decade maybe even the schools will move children up a year based on DOB rather than School Year.

No one has demonstrated how this move will reduce the breaches when the breaches that have taken place have mostly been by deliberate false declaring of the age by competitors and/or their connections (as this involves juniors) or by ROs of Senior races who don't understand the rather simple current system and therefore probably shouldn't be an RO anyway.

The proposed Rule Change, if put in place, will apply to all races. So all races will be Age on Day and it allows no flexibility for anything. There are no rules in place that say "except...." for Championship Series, One of Champs Races, Local Leagues, or Race Series such as the Bunny's.

So when will the FRA Guide us to the Rules that will allow for Champs, or will allow for one-off races to vary from this?
I look forward to this guidance.

Oh and by the way, if an RO has the right form, signs up all over the show, correct info in the calendar, but the breach takes place by an athlete or their adult carer falsifying the entry form, why punish the RO.
Take sanctions against the athlete's connections and the club.

[Graham Breeze]

Championships: In the 2012 Calendar it is on page 104 under Categories & Scoring. This will not change for 2013 (well the page number might).Local Leagues & etc: the FRA only has rules where rules are necessary for the overall responsible management of fell running. That's its job. Organising races isn't.

Graham, you really surprise me when you come on here with such wishy-washy stuff. For a man with your eloquence and clear knowledge it astounds me sometimes.

You seem to be saying that we will be looking to move to a system where in all races Age on Day will be the relevant factor - it makes more sense does it? Why? No one has really explained this.
If it makes more sense then we will soon see the other disciplines of athletics follow this sensible lead proposed by the FRA and maybe we'll see it expanded to other sports as well as they all seem to take the rather bonkers approach of having operative dates for age calculation. BU the end of the decade maybe even the schools will move children up a year based on DOB rather than School Year.

No one has demonstrated how this move will reduce the breaches when the breaches that have taken place have mostly been by deliberate false declaring of the age by competitors and/or their connections (as this involves juniors) or by ROs of Senior races who don't understand the rather simple current system and therefore probably shouldn't be an RO anyway.

The proposed Rule Change, if put in place, will apply to all races. So all races will be Age on Day and it allows no flexibility for anything. There are no rules in place that say "except...." for Championship Series, One of Champs Races, Local Leagues, or Race Series such as the Bunny's.

So when will the FRA Guide us to the Rules that will allow for Champs, or will allow for one-off races to vary from this?
I look forward to this guidance.

Oh and by the way, if an RO has the right form, signs up all over the show, correct info in the calendar, but the breach takes place by an athlete or their adult carer falsifying the entry form, why punish the RO.
Take sanctions against the athlete's connections and the club.

[Corniceman]

Championships: In the 2012 Calendar it is on page 104 under Categories & Scoring. This will not change for 2013 (well the page number might).Local Leagues & etc: the FRA only has rules where rules are necessary for the overall responsible management of fell running. That's its job. Organising races isn't.

Am I missing something here? Why doesnt FRA use the age band system used by the rest of athletics or at least events affiliated to UKA? I find it confusing as to why my girls are U12 for fell but 13 for track and field and X/C, surely you have to have an age at a certain date rather than age on day approach?

[Witton Park]

Championships: In the 2012 Calendar it is on page 104 under Categories & Scoring. This will not change for 2013 (well the page number might).Local Leagues & etc: the FRA only has rules where rules are necessary for the overall responsible management of fell running. That's its job. Organising races isn't.

OK, so when Duncan comes along now to a race in 2013 for the series, assuming this rule is adopted and let's say he approaches Pendle and Clougha again.

These races have to be held under UKA & FRA Rules to hold a permit, so looking at the age groupings, they would normally have an U12 race up to 3km and that would be based on age on 1st Jan.

Under the new rules Pendle will be based on 6th April U12 and Clougha on June 22nd U12.

An 11 year old running at Pendle with Birthday 1st May will be an U12 at Pendle, but will be an U14 by Clougha.

But if these races are in the Champs, the Champs calculates based on 1st Jan, but the races are governed by Rule 410, age on day.

These races are not standalone Champs races and even if they were the races still need the UKA permit so rule 410 applies.

Please explain how this will be resolved.

[Witton Park]

Am I missing something here? Why doesnt FRA use the age band system used by the rest of athletics or at least events affiliated to UKA? I find it confusing as to why my girls are U12 for fell but 13 for track and field and X/C, surely you have to have an age at a certain date rather than age on day approach?

I don't know why that is, but when you look at Track and Field it runs Spring to Summer and Cross Country is Autumn through Winter. They fit together an tie in with school year.

Junior fell races are pretty rare in the winter, so 1st Jan would have seemed a sensible date originally and it doesn't present any problems.

I would have more time for case for alignment with other discplines - that would have been a worthwhile discussion.

But I still have not seen any case made for this age on day other than rather vague "it makes sense". It seems to have stemmed from Disciplinary issues, rather than junior fell running.

[FRAFixtures]

Am I missing something here? Why doesnt FRA use the age band system used by the rest of athletics or at least events affiliated to UKA? I find it confusing as to why my girls are U12 for fell but 13 for track and field and X/C, surely you have to have an age at a certain date rather than age on day approach?

I believe there are significant differences between the manner in which the track & field and X/C disciplines operate as compared with fell running.

As I understand it track & field and X/C are totally club focussed with events frequently being part of leagues and the individuals would usually be entered (pre-entered?) by their clubs who are fully conversant with the UKA age category rules for juniors.

The situation is very different for fell running.

For 2012 the FRA has provided Permits for over 150 events which have races specifically for juniors. In addition there are about 250 Short Category Senior races which some juniors are eligible to enter. Some of the juniors entering will be unattached. Several of the juniors and their parents may not be very conversant with the "age on 1st Jan" rule.

The vast majority of this very large number of races have entry on the day of the race, often with a couple of hundred people entering in a relatively short period of time with little time for the officials to be checking the Category entered against the date of birth on the form to see if a junior runner is entering the correct category.

It seems to me that under these circumstances "age on the day" of the race is much more straightforward to understand and operate by all those involved including race organisers, officials, junior runners, parents etc.

As already mentioned special arrangements can be made for the six Junior Championship races to ensure that an individual remains in the same Category throughout the season.