BG attempts 27th to 29th June

[blencathrafrommykitchen]

I expect that each of us will draw the line differently but I can also accept that collectively we might want to come up with some rules of conduct.

Examples of dodgy areas in my opinion are:

reflective tape on the posts up Gt Calva, but once they're shining in the light of you headtorch are you supposed to ignore them?

GPS - a no no under any circumstances, as it takes too much away from your self-reliance (but would people say the same about compasses if they'd only just been invented)

ladder on Broad Stand - I used it because it was there, because I was kn**kered, and because it would have been difficult to get round it!

any sort of paint or powder mark.

But what about marking obscure trods and turnings with little cairns; or standing on your pacer's head to get up Broad Stand; or a hand down a rocky step; or your pacer literally pushing you uphill with a hand in your back?

AtEotD I think I know whether I feel right in my heart about an achievement. BUT I also find it interesting at times to get a sense of what other people feel is fair or honourable. Reflecting on other people's views helps shape my own feelings... so these debates do have some value, as long as they don't stop us getting out on the hill.

The real downside of my BG is that it's kn**kered me to the point of spending time on the Forum rather than being outside! Back on the bike today, one week on, but 10% slower than normal!

[IainR]

Good effort.

Broadly agree with you in general.

Interesting re GPS though, it's looking like GPS will soon become part of the ML schemes as its such a recognised safety device, times are changing in how they are viewed.

I'm the same, 'ran' 96 miles last weekend, so just started running again.

[Mark Smith]

Marking the ground with power is not something I would do, but I'm not really keen on telling people how to go out and enjoy the mountains either.

If the double rounders were the ones that marked the ground, I could understand the thinking in this case, i.e. upon returning to Broad Stand they would be utterly battered and they would need all the help they could get. They used very small amounts of powder, very subtle but there nonetheless. It may have washed away before they would have returned anyhow!

I didn't object to this so much as it was a none permenant solution which didn;t harm anyone or anything. Also, they would have had to know the right way in the first place for their plan to work, so it's not as if they didn't do any navigating. Crucially, if they were happy with it, nothing is damaged and it did not dent their sense of achievement, why should they give a stuff about what anyone else thinks?

I really hope noone starts implmenting rules re what makes a BGR and what doesn't. The beauty of this is that it is simple - 24 hrs, 42 summits, start and finish in Keswick and all under your own power. Who would be the rule maker? As far as I see it, Bob Graham set the rules and they are simple and constitute a great day out.

[IainR]

No need to sound so defensive Tony. I'm hardly saying how people should be out in the hills, but I see nothing wrong with saying my position on such matters.

I agree to a point. Which is why I love the simplicity of the PBR.

I'm a bit torn about this truth be told.

I guess it's down to why you do these mountaine events, test of fitness/stamina or test of fitness stamina and general mountain craft.

Yes they will be battered. But they would have navigators with them. If they are that battered that they cannnot read a map can they be trusted to follow debradable dots, which may have washed off in the rain.

There's a general level of safety I think you have to uphold on such rounds.

Rather than rules per se why not just say a preferred style, however I do see that it's a continous line, from the pure onsite solo, to the fully supported and tracked. Where do you draw the line. Personally I feel the use of aids for climbing and marking the land is over the line.

The beauty of the rounds is the challenge, that involves intimate knowledge, reccying etc. What's the point of that if you can send someone up to paint a yellow line.

[Mark Smith]

No defensiveness intended, these forums can be deceptive... It's good to get all sorts of views on this.

I do take your point and am torn also. I guess I'm trying to put myself in their shoes.

On thing though: the map is not really telling you much in the slabby and craggy area between Broad Stand and Scafell (unless it is about 1:5000!), so it's down to memorising specific features like boulders, shape of crags etc - which is part of mountaincraft. Perhaps there was a bit of mountain judgement in this case because they realised that this part of the route was tough to follow even using the information available from the map, and so backed it up?

I think a bit of harmless belt and braces was applied here and I suspect nowhere else on the route, probably because it's the only section where the map is fairly useless.

[IainR]

Yeah. Sorry I took you as being defensive, hard to measure things in written form.

I've been thinking more about this now too.

Have you seen the red dots that show the path from Glyder Fawr - Pen Y Pass, you can follow them to get the descent on the Pedol Peris, but they are now so weathered that they are hard to see.

the more I think about this the more I tie myself in knots arguing with myself :-)

An incredible effort, like Johns recent 2500ers run. I suppose its the call of the attempter and how they sit with it. It it doesn't have any long term detrimental effects to the landscape then that's really all that matters.

Personally I aim to do the BGR, after the PBR which may or may not happen this year, but would want a rope for security on BS but nothing more.

I can also assure that if there was a ladder at BS I would clamber over the bugger and sod my ethics, as I wouldn't waste time moving or clambering around it.

[Baggins]

On thing though: the map is not really telling you much in the slabby and craggy area between Broad Stand and Scafell (unless it is about 1:5000!), so it's down to memorising specific features like boulders, shape of crags etc - which is part of mountaincraft. Perhaps there was a bit of mountain judgement in this case because they realised that this part of the route was tough to follow even using the information available from the map, and so backed it up?

This is what recces are for Tony, also once you get to know the line its not too bad to find, your funneled down to Broad Stand just remember to go left before the big drop I think leaving powder is a step too far and it affects other peoples enjoyment, what does it say about our sport if others see fellrunners laying trails of powder over the fells.

Cairns are another problem I've noticed more cropping up on some lines and I've been known to dismantle the odd one

Bill

[discochesney]

Well done to all who got around last weekend, will be interesting to hear your tales in Shap, October

[Timo Austino]

Apres BG.

With all the discussion of acceptable practice is fell running and the BG now being investigated by "The Cook Report" not so cunningly disguised in this pic!

[Bob]

It's a difficult one this: on the one hand there is little point in being proscriptive about what people can and can't do on the fells; on the other there is the danger that the route effectively becomes completely flagged.

I think that having a rope on Broad Stand has become acceptable and most parties will either arrange for a rope or take advantage of ropes already in place. Twenty years ago, I was climbing on Scafell when a group of Leeds lads I knew arrived and set a rope up on Broad Stand - "We are helping Chris Sowden out with his BG". Now Chris at the time was climbing the hardest routes of the day and if he felt the need for a rope...

I've noticed some cairns appearing on the route - not big ones, just a few stones, situated so that you can't see them from the normal paths taken by walkers. Slightly worrying to my mind are the reflective poles on Great Calva. They were there three years ago but I don't know who placed them. I went a different way on GC so they didn't interfere or help with my round. I think they should be removed though, they just seem out of place.

GPS? Well I got given one to carry the other weekend when pacing the Helvellyn section but it just stayed in the top pocket of my sack beeping, whether the beeps were to comfort me or tell me off I don't know. Even in the murk I was quite happy with my map and compass and we didn't get lost.