I think knotted ropes, etriers, ladders are all the same, you are aiding the round.
I think knotted ropes, etriers, ladders are all the same, you are aiding the round.
Don't know about artificial climbing aids..have no experience of that. However, if you are going to use them, surely you should arrange for them to be placed and removed by your support team to leave the mountain pristine after your passing? But ground markers is blo*dy desecration and shame on anyone who thinks of doing it.
Agree with the views on GPS. Use it if you want. After all you have to learn how to use it and if you drop it you are bug*ared. Personally like quick and effective map/compass work.
Simon Blease
Monmouth
Which all goes to show what a wonderfully varied world we have in the mountains and what a wonderfully varied bunch we are!
I have my own take on style and ethics of these things but it will inevitably vary from many other people. Any mountain challenge is an intensely personal thing and the great thing is having complete freedom (within the constraints of preserving the environment for others) to apply your own code of ethics and your own style. That's why the BG 24 Hour Club is anathema to me. In my view, personal challenges in the mountains should have no governing bodies or clubs setting rules. The freedom to invent it all yourself is what makes the whole thing so attractive and what gives us the variety.
Another thought. If you set off from Wasdale at 10pm going clockwise, did the section to Keswick solo, then picked up a bunch of mates for the section to Dunmail had full road support there then did the section back to Wasdale with just one companion what would that be? Not fully supported, not solo, not fully Alpine-style. Didn't even start in Keswick (shock!). Would it even be a Bob Graham Round? If not, why not? If the BG is about doing it exactly as Bob did then 99% of modern rounds are not "Bob Graham Rounds" If it's about doing the same 42 peaks even that is difficult because there is considerable doubt about Bob's 42.
Do you begin to see the problem with the "BG Club"?
My views, for what they're worth:
* each of us chooses what tactics/ethics we want to use, the competition is against ourselves, not against others
* but it's interesting to know what other people think, and that helps me to shape my own views (fickle person that I am), especially when other people put forward arguments that I haven't thought of
* there may be some aspects of tactics/ethics that are so far down the spectrum that they're generally regarded as unacceptable, and the debate helps to identify these (I think that's called politics)
* the BGR club is about celebrating the round with other people who have a common interest/obsession, by its nature it's exclusive, but that's different from being elitist
* I don't think people are interested from a competitive point of view in whether your round was 23.59 or 21.46, times only come into discussions in the context of your emotions during the round - eg under pressure or relaxed
if I can't see blencathra it's raining
if I can see blencathra it's going to rain
I don't think there is any problem at all! Of course, you can try and manufacture a problem if that is your wish, as you can twist the rules on anything.Originally Posted by Trundler
Do you begin to see the problem with the "BG Club"?
In our club we have had two successful rounds in the last couple of weeks. On one round, two guys set off without road support and went around unsupported, just with rucksacks. One of them had done it before, the other hadn't. He didn't fancy all the fuss and arranging all the support, so his round was witnessed by the other runner.
The other round was a fully supported round... with up to 29 supporters, some doing more than one leg. I believe a rope was used on BS.. and I think a GPS was carried. All the supporters enjoyed the day out and associated pub sessions and it's a wonderful occassion, more akin to a social do for like minded people.
The best thing is that they are both now members of the BG club and it is great that both types of round are recognised. Each to his own...
No ones arguing against a rope on BS, just using the rope as an aid.
I sort of see Trundlers point, it's a bit silly that you can be dragged around, use ladders to climb any tricky points, paint the route on the floor and be allowed in the club as long as you finished and started at the right point. But if I was ton run it in the middle of December on my own from Wasdale, I wouldn't be allowed entry because I had no witness and worst of all started at the wrong point.
It's one reason why I prefer the PB as there are fewer rules. But then again the romance of finishing at the Hall has a certain charm to it, which the PB lacks.
Superbly put.
ST
PS - were you the chap looking for someone as we were climbing blencthra on friday evening? It looks like you on your avatar?
When people head off to the Alps for a season climbing, you either have the money to use cable cars and lifts up to a high point, or you're a poor student who has to trudge up an extra 1000m to the route.
Some would argue that the use/presence of lifts in unethical and detracts from the mountain environment, but they get used!
As has been pointed out in many other threads the style is for you to choose and to be honest in that choice. BUT what you do shouldn't damage the environment or stop others completing the round/ascent in a purer or cleaner style than you in the future.
I might just take this opportunity to thank all those who contribute to the variety of BG/PB threads. They are an invaluable source of information and motivation. I'm starting my BG round this friday with a huge amount of support presence from Calder Valley. I will have a rope on BS and I have also given permission to be beaten with nettles if I don't seem to be working hard enough. Questionable ethics but should get me around!
ben
But thats a climbers ethic not runners, I would be the same but then I'm a climber, does it really matter to you wether someone got round buy pulling on arope or climbing a ten foot ladder, doesn't bother meNo ones arguing against a rope on BS, just using the rope as an aid.
This shows what can happen if you start leaving markers on the groundI was out in Australia earlier this year, and running through the Warrumbungles, a national Park out west of Sydney, on the rockier sections they had cateyes scewed into the rocks every 10 or so meters
But that's down to wanting to do the BGR or join the BG club not the same thing, I know someone who did a sub 18h BGR starting from Dunmail with roadside support and the odd pacer on the hill but did some sections solo as far as I'm concerned he's done the BGR.I sort of see Trundlers point, it's a bit silly that you can be dragged around, use ladders to climb any tricky points, paint the route on the floor and be allowed in the club as long as you finished and started at the right point. But if I was ton run it in the middle of December on my own from Wasdale, I wouldn't be allowed entry because I had no witness and worst of all started at the wrong point.
Bill
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