Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[Deadlegs]

Having a high VO2 max is such an obvious advantage in speed and endurance events that if it was easily measurable, and reasonably obvious to the naked eye, like for example weight, then we would probably compete in divisions, like in boxing or judo.

And to pre-empt those who will point out that VO2 max can be improved with training, the amount it can be improved is relatively small - most improvements with training are due to changes in running economy, lactate threshold, and lactate turn point.

But no matter how much and how intelligently you train, despite these improvements in economy/threshold/turn point, if you start with a VO2 max of only 35, you will never be world class as a runner or cyclist.

Improving physiological variables is very different from acquiring a complex motor skill - sure, running is a complex motor skill, but even superb running economy, by itself, is not enough.

Sorry but I think this is just wrong.

[PaulE]

Would you say a jump in V02 max from 49ml/kg/min to 66ml/kg/min was 'relatively small,' or even possible?

Surely part of said increase could be due to mental strength? If done as a "maximal" test, then can the perception of max effort be altered as well as the actual physical entity? If it's done (as is the case at some gyms) by going to a certain level of exercise and extrapolating to maximal based on a perceived exertion score then hard training will always make you feel like this level is easier.

Does that make any sense? It does in my head, but it's far too early and I've been building train sets with a 2 year old for the last hour or so!

[Harry H Howgill]

And to pre-empt those who will point out that VO2 max can be improved with training, the amount it can be improved is relatively small - most improvements with training are due to changes in running economy, lactate threshold, and lactate turn point.

But no matter how much and how intelligently you train, despite these improvements in economy/threshold/turn point, if you start with a VO2 max of only 35, you will never be world class as a runner or cyclist.

Improving physiological variables is very different from acquiring a complex motor skill - sure, running is a complex motor skill, but even superb running economy, by itself, is not enough.

Your comments about the improvements you can make to your natural VO2 are right. You can improve it to a point but to a limit you have inherited. It is just as much a limit as something more visible such as leg length might be.

[Mike T]

Would you say a jump in V02 max from 49ml/kg/min to 66ml/kg/min was 'relatively small,' or even possible?

Such an improvement would be most unusual, though I would not say it is absolutely impossible. My first reaction would be to query the results - how many measurements were made, how far apart; my second reaction is to wonder if there was not something that artificially lowered the first result - were they injured at the time/anaemic/just getting over a significant illness, or were they vastly overwieght and have lost a lot of it.

Even if this result is true, the vast majority of people cannot improve like this, no matter how intelligently they train for 10,000 hours.

[CL]

Surely part of said increase could be due to mental strength? If done as a "maximal" test, then can the perception of max effort be altered as well as the actual physical entity? If it's done (as is the case at some gyms) by going to a certain level of exercise and extrapolating to maximal based on a perceived exertion score then hard training will always make you feel like this level is easier.

Does that make any sense? It does in my head, but it's far too early and I've been building train sets with a 2 year old for the last hour or so!

I did hint at that in one of my last posts. If a person is timid can they train hard enough to push their oxygen uptake higher in the first place? Possibly. Either way you'd expect their pain tolerance to be at about the same level of oxygen deprivation unless they've mentally toughened. This is one of the problems of making claims that some people can't raise their V02 maxes because of 'genes,' they ignore volition.

There are other problems as well. Giving the V02 max on the basis of unit body weight per minute is very misleading. In my example the gain in V02 could have been down to a loss of weight not an actual increase in oxygen uptake. So if a person has a V02 of 50 and then loses 5kg every other remaining kg on that person's body would gain according to the mathematical statement. In truth however nothing has really changed in terms of 'absolute V02.' Oh and if we say a runner has a V02 of 60ml/kg/min are we really saying each kg of shoulder muscle is using as much oxygen as each kg of thigh muscle? Of course not but that is what the mathematical statement (ml/kg/min) implies.

An increase in 'absolute V02' implies so many things. Changes in blood, heart, lungs, muscles, skin etc and if you say a person can't increase their oxygen uptake then you are implying exercise won't change the capacity of the organs because it's these that make the other (oxygen uptake) possible.

[Mike T]

There are a couple of interesting videos on the UKA site featuring Professor Andy Jones - exercise physiologist - talking about Paula's results over the years 1992 - 2003. In that time her weekly mileage increased from 25 to 120 per week but there was no change in her VO2 max - it stayed in the low 70s. What did improve were her running economy - from 205 (ml of O2/kg/km) to 165, her lactate threshold speed, from 15 to 18.5 km/h, and her lactate turn point speed, from 16.5 to 20 km/h.

Having a high VO2 max gave her the potential to be world class, and she then put in the relevant intelligent training hours - but if she had started with a VO2 max of only 35 ......

[Dynamo Dan]

There are a couple of interesting videos on the UKA site featuring Professor Andy Jones - exercise physiologist - talking about Paula's results over the years 1992 - 2003. In that time her weekly mileage increased from 25 to 120 per week but there was no change in her VO2 max - it stayed in the low 70s. What did improve were her running economy - from 205 (ml of O2/kg/km) to 165, her lactate threshold speed, from 15 to 18.5 km/h, and her lactate turn point speed, from 16.5 to 20 km/h.

Having a high VO2 max gave her the potential to be world class, and she then put in the relevant intelligent training hours - but if she had started with a VO2 max of only 35 ......

Just out of interest if someone has a very low resting heart rate say around 38 and they can push it up to 195 would you expect them to have a better than average VO2 max too?

[Mike T]

Just out of interest if someone has a very low resting heart rate say around 38 and they can push it up to 195 would you expect them to have a better than average VO2 max too?

No. Heart rate range and VO2 max are 2 separate variables. Interestingly Paula's speed at a given heart rate improved significantly - at 180 bpm her running speed improved from 14 to 19 km/h.

As long as hearts are not diseased they do not limit our running - they pump out what the veins return to them. The rate limiting process is what our mitochondria can do. Similarly, our lungs do not limit us as long as they are not diseased.

[A.P.E Knott]

It is counterintuitive but not necessarlly wrong. The trouble with what you have said is that it is just what you think. It is not based on science. At least Syed produced some evidence.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/search?q=10000+hours

[Dynamo Dan]

No. Heart rate range and VO2 max are 2 separate variables. Interestingly Paula's speed at a given heart rate improved significantly - at 180 bpm her running speed improved from 14 to 19 km/h.

As long as hearts are not diseased they do not limit our running - they pump out what the veins return to them. The rate limiting process is what our mitochondria can do. Similarly, our lungs do not limit us as long as they are not diseased.

So is VO2 max justa measure of our mitochondria? I thought it was a combination of that heart rate and lung capacity?