Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[Trog]

According to an interview Said Aouita never ran further than 16km in training but in my estimation is the best 5000m runner ever. He used training methods that meant he didn't have to churn out 120mpw. Yes he was gifted in terms of having a body built for running fast but it was his methods that made him excel.

It is too easy to put Britain's present/past poor results down to a lack of mileage as I've shown with my example.

Are you trying to suggest that SA had it right and every 5/10K runner since who does put in 120mpw is wrong?

[Dynamo Dan]

When I was cycling at a high level training was all about building a base and then a short period of intense turbo work. After I stopped the coaches at British Cycling changed their approach to favour more quality over quantity and we all know what happened next........

[CL]

Are you trying to suggest that SA had it right and every 5/10K runner since who does put in 120mpw is wrong?

You've repeated your post Trog. In answer to your question I'd say any 5km runner doing 120mpw hasn't the slightest clue about the philosophy of training. Oh and for every runner you point to as proof of your argument I'll show you 100 runners who failed using the same methods. An intelligent approach means discovering methods of training that'll give the best results for the least amount of time invested. The reason for this attitude is simple: Who in their right mind wants to spend 2-3 hours pounding the pavement? Together with the negative consequences of such a regime like joint wear and tear, anxiety and other health problems, high mileage is fool's gold.

Aouita had a simple but effective formula, "if I feel good I go to track, if I don't feel good I don't go to track." Today's athletes go to the track even when they are knackered because they follow a schedule regardless of the negative consequences.

[Trog]

You've repeated your post Trog.

Ooops, I must have pushed the post button in double quick time.

120 mpw for a 5km runner on the face of it does look excessive, but of course is that this week, next week and every week, or just the first phase of the programme.

Being more specific, I am currently aiming for a race in late April of 12 plus miles with 2000 ft of climb. I am aiming to break 100 minutes. I have no intention of training anywhere near 100 mpw, 50 would be more realistic but I intend to have one run (out of 7) each week of at least 100 minutes.

If you are suggesting that I can achieve my aim with far less or smarter, I am all ears and will happily be your Guinea pig

[CL]

Ooops, I must have pushed the post button in double quick time.

120 mpw for a 5km runner on the face of it does look excessive, but of course is that this week, next week and every week, or just the first phase of the programme.

Being more specific, I am currently aiming for a race in late April of 12 plus miles with 2000 ft of climb. I am aiming to break 100 minutes. I have no intention of training anywhere near 100 mpw, 50 would be more realistic but I intend to have one run (out of 7) each week of at least 100 minutes.

If you are suggesting that I can achieve my aim with far less or smarter, I am all ears and will happily be your Guinea pig

I mean 120 MPW at any time including training for a BG round. I would say 50 MPW or 5 hours was more like it with one or two harder sessions( a race is counted as a hard session) and a longer run. The main thing in my mind is to push the V02 as high as possible with relevant sessions and then add just enough endurance to enable you to sustain a high percentage of your V02 for the period of the race.

[dylan]

mo farrar runs 120 miles per week,his coach says the sessions that have given him the edge are the 3 sessions a week of weight training.
personally i think everyone is different and there training needs to reflect this.
as i am quite large build i found i had to run more to get the results.
when i was in my prime i was on 80 to 90 miles a week,with 2 speed,1 sustained and 1 long.
when i tried 100 miles a week i found another gear and improved more,but i couldnt cut the grass or decorate.i was tired all the time,but got pbs,
one of my training partners ran 40 miles per week and was always faster than me,thanks to his genes.
i was once talking to steve binns(commonwealth silver) who said he couldnt do more than 60 mpw,and when he tried to step it up he had to have 2 baths to try and recover.
i dont know if you remember jimmy ashworth(think 2.10 marathon)jimmy used to be in correspondence with arthur lydiard,
jim would run 200 miles a week,the mileage suited him.
colin moore(sub 44 mins 10 miler)would do 50 miles a week all of quality and would beat jimmy by a good 3 minutes over 10 miles.
as said everyone is different.

[mr brightside]

I would have to disagree Mr Brightside, Coe trained for events lasting either 1:4X mins or 3:3Xmins, massively different from the 15mins or so a Bofra is usually won in. Even when considering the downhill it still means 10mins of 'effort' running which is far closer to 5km as an equivalent. If you look at any half decent 5km runner they will be doing no less than 70-80mpw with most world class runners nearing 120mpw if not more. Aerobic development is unavoidable and there is no better way of attaining this than easy/steady miles ala Lydiard, infact most 1500m will do a fair distance and i'm sure Coe regularly went well over race distance. If you have a search this a good documentary on him on youtube. A good website for reference is www.runnerslife.co.uk it has a number of international runners from various event who post training and gives a great insight into exactly what they do week in week out.
It is believed the poor period of distance runners we appear to have just come out of is due to a theosophy of low mileage, back in the 80's (Golden Era) it was well accepted there were no short cuts and 100mpw was the norm.

I don't know the finer points of Coe's training, i just remember an interesting documentary which gave the impression he was not doing mega miles but quite the opposite- i believe this is Speed Endurance in a roundabout way. If most good 5000m runners are 70-80 mpw then i think they may be shortening their careers unnecessarily, if it gives them 5secs then so be it but this approach isn't ideal for recreational runners.

The main thing in my mind is to push the V02 as high as possible with relevant sessions and then add just enough endurance to enable you to sustain a high percentage of your V02 for the period of the race.

I agree Chris, this is basically what i would expect to be a sensible approach for folks like us. If some professional runners swear by benefits from high mpw then they can crack on, but recreational runners on the open scene should not be buying into statements such as, "you've got to get the miles in", as if it's a prerequisite for peak performance.

[mr brightside]

Coe trained for events lasting either 1:4X mins or 3:3Xmins...

I don't actually know what these ratios mean, can you simplify?

[Yaks]

Think he meant 1 minute forty something, and 3 minutes thirty something

[mr brightside]

Being more specific, I am currently aiming for a race in late April of 12 plus miles with 2000 ft of climb. I am aiming to break 100 minutes. I have no intention of training anywhere near 100 mpw, 50 would be more realistic but I intend to have one run (out of 7) each week of at least 100 minutes.

If you are suggesting that I can achieve my aim with far less or smarter, I am all ears and will happily be your Guinea pig

Let me put my cards on the table, Trog.

I am currently aiming to be injury free and able to take up some training outside of my weekly short race. I have no aspirations beyond 10m in one go, this has been approved as sensible and realistically achievable by my physio, and wish to run no further than 16mpw. I hope to execute the following:

- Medium race every other weekend for stamina up to my milage limit of 10, short race in between.
- Midweek session 1, interval training with focus on effort not distance so maybe uphill.
- Midweek session 2, hard bike ride 18m local route; or hill reps max 4m (weather to dictate, i hate biking in the rain)

- No consecutive sessions, no long runs strict 16mpw, focus on discipline- drop session if ill or can't be arsed, full commitment at all times.

I've noticed there is a massive difference in my performance when i do something midweek and keep getting out regularly. I've had a crap year and been ill over xmas so managed 29.51 at Wansfell 2012. In 2011 when i was running every weekend and doing some biking midweek i ran 27.09. It's a massive difference and i suspect more yet could be wiped off that with a sensible, structured pattern of training and racing with no long runs needed.