View Poll Results: Lydiard, S.E. or neither?

Voters
12. You may not vote on this poll
  • Lydiard

    12 100.00%
Page 20 of 20 FirstFirst ... 10181920
Results 191 to 195 of 195

Thread: Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

  1. #191
    Senior Member Tuffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Stokesley, North Yorkshire
    Posts
    241

    Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance

    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post
    .. but I now descend much slower than I used to on rough stuff.. not sure if that's injuries/wear and tear/sense or lack of specific fell work..
    ...thinking about it too much ....
    Tuffer

    Is enjoying the running

  2. #192
    Master IainR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    NH, USA
    Posts
    6,098

    Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuffer View Post
    ...thinking about it too much ....
    Probably..

    Also when I was talking about road work.. and not needing to be too fell specific..

    That's probably different where you do your road running.. in the UK most of my running is peak or snowdonia.. the peaks generally hillier roads, but with both its easy to do 1000ft of ascent in 10 miles on the road.. so you get plenty of hill training in without really meaning too..

    I'm now moving to the german plain so flat = proper flat, and I reckon I'll have to search for the hills much more.

  3. #193
    Senior Member LissaJous's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Mid Wales
    Posts
    806

    Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance

    There's enough talk about road-runners turning up and stealing results at Snowdon or in trials races, etc.

    And there are plenty of stunning examples if you count the 10%-ish uphill races I mentioned:

    Andrea Mayr, 2012, 100% focus on the marathon for the Olympics (to the extent that one highly knowledgeable commentator asked me rhetorically where she had been the last year-and-a-half; as it happened I did have an answer!). Then a few weeks later she's mountain running world champion, with a 30-second margin.

    Jonathan Wyatt did the same in 2004, I'm not sure he was 100% focused on the marathon though, but he only had one week to recover! He won the WMRA race by over a minute..

  4. #194

    Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance

    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post
    Turlough, one thing I always wonder is how many miles a week, during regular training, would you suggest to do at or above MP.. I reckon at the moment I'm in the 5-10% region, unless I have a race on.

    At the moment I'm increasing my mileage to consistently 90 a week. Basically it's 1 20+ miler, 1 14/15 miler midweek, 2 effort sessions, reps 2-6 minutes normally, lasting around 25 mins of actual effort, then maybe a different hard session/hills or 4 mile tempo at around 1/2 M pace..

    Then days of steady doubles or 8-12 milers at aound 6:30-6:45 pace..

    The only quick marathons I've done have been 2:42 but with 1200ft of ascent in both, Boston was flat but 30 Deg C so I ran 2:44, so I reckon I should be aiming 2:36-2:38 ish when I next focus on one..

    I now do much more road work or at least good trail, I do most of my running around 6:30-7:30 min miles, so rarely run on the fell, especially in the states, but even in the UK only use fell runs as steady runs a few days a week unless starting to focus on the fells again..

    Morning 6-8 milers will normally be done slower, maybe around 8, depends how sore I am. Yesterday for example, raced a half m. trail race sunday so did 6 very easy (9:00's) early on and then 7 last night back at 7:00 as the run progressed as I was feeling better.
    That looks good Iain.

    I use the general rule that anything above 10% faster than race pace is speedwork and for mechanical purposes only.
    5-10% seems about right. I do a large variety of sessions in the general phase.
    Some sessions might have only some portions dipping under MP.
    I do Two types:
    Shorter ones to build aerobic power: e.g 10 X 1k 2 mins rest, 20-40 mins tempo/progression. 6-10k tempo uphill.
    Longer fast ones to build resistance: inc. Medium tempos/progression runs: 40-60 min @95-105% MP And inc. Long tempos/progression 60-90 min (85-100%) race pace.(15@85%,15@90% etc).
    That’s where we might approach it differently. You do both sessions in the aerobic power range. Id do one of aerobic powera nd aerobic resistance per week. Not counting the long runs which are good and are resistance too ofcourse. You know better than anyone what suits you but that’s the structure I use.
    I imagine a general attack on the aerobic system through a variety of paces. I try and do a different session each time so the body doesn’t get “good” at a particular session and adapt less to it.
    If you’re training on your own this can increase the fun factor and maintain consistant the interest. That and the high mileage should put good pressure everyw eek. But you should have that feeling of pressure and a constant slight fatique. I think personally if youre in the 2:30-40 range the general phase is key as aerobic conditioning development has greater potential. As the times get lower, more gains can be made by running more specifically. I suppose it depends on how your aerobic conditioning is. But it should be maxed at all speeds not just slower and faster ones. Thats where those 40-90 minute fast runs come in.

    Quote Originally Posted by LissaJous View Post
    I'm not complaining about it, but the thread's turning into road running for fellrunners!

    An addition to Iain's comments: how much of the training would you expect to be on road? That tends to be a limiting factor for me.
    In general, IMO anything within 15% of MP should be done on the road preferably to make the running as specific as possible. When youre in general training this is not quite as important as youre looking at intensities to get you fitter. i.e youre more concerned with the internal loads on your system. Even then sessions should be done on road and tempos at least on fast trail.
    As the running gets more specific then anything faster than 15% race pace should be done on road or good trails. Recovery runs and long easy maintenance runs can be done as you like and should always be enjoyable where possible IMO.

    BTW Turlough, remember your specific, specific, specific? What's specific to fell & mountain running is an element of variability, quite a big element if your season includes short and long races. If I've been running my treadmill session, that's a lot of training at 15%. The progression (for me) would be to steeper work outdoors, but for uphill-only races the average gradient is more like 10%, so you'd need speed work on 10% and gentler gradients.
    I remember! A general phase should stimulate your aerobic system from many angles. This can and should apply to fell running just as easily or more so than marathon running for the As discussed aerobic power and resistance need to be developed. These sessions can be alternated between various hill gradients and flat. 2 on hills per week, id say. On the treadmill you could do every second tempo run on a gradient from 4-9 %. Longer tempos can be done on hilly road. A long fell run should obviously be included 3-4 times a month if possible, otherwise it’s the bike or Turbo. But long steady runs over hilly road have their place too at this stage. 10 X 3 mins is one session that could be done on a threadmill at a lowish gradient 3-6%.
    In the British champs this year over 5 months there is a very tough medium race to start followed by a short and medium with a long race to finish. That’s a big divergence in race distances and types but we can still make the training specific. I would suggest a (very) long fell run/cycle in the general phase would have to have the distant long target in mind. Maybe every second run going long and the alternate being shorter but run a little harder. This would suit also the first race (Medium but a lot of climbing and descending). I would want to be able to do 20 mile hard hilly road runs in this phase too, once a month with weekly similar medium long runs.
    In the next phase (special phase) youre threadmill session would fit nicely in to develop lactate buffering/re-use that youll need to complete your specific sessions well. Sessions are a little more specific but with more than 1 race in mind e.g 10 X 2 mins uphill on different hills. Or 6 X 10 mins uphill (slower than upcoming race pace, jog down recovery). The faster long fell run is now faster and over a shorter specific course to Race 1. As you can see the sessions are gradually getting more specific to the first race but the very long fell run/ cycle is maintained every second week, with the endurance necessities of the Long race very relevant even this far out.
    The flat or low gradient flat sessions are maintained by alternation. Leg speed and cadence must be maintained. Adjust road/fell proportion of training to achieve this.

    As the first race approaches the sessions get specific. The short hill session gets longer and on specific terrain. if racing time is 80 mins, extend a hill session to 200metres hard up and fast down for 50 minutes, run a similar course at race effort for 66% race distance 3 weeks out,a s two possible specific endurance sessions. The long run might only be 125% of race length, over relavent terrain with some at race pace or close. So shorter sessions are getting longer (power is extended at race pace) and longer runs get faster (extensive runs become more powerful). Each session specific but complimenting the other.

    The older sessions are alternated including your lactate hill session to support the specific hill sessions. One longer run at 60% distance of your normal long run to maintain endurance with the distant race in mind.
    After race 1 sessions become specific to race 2, topping up on speed and power as necessary and keeping the long run with the Long race 4 in mind until close to race time.

    Ill level with you the longest fell type race ive done (not counting Sierre Zinal) took me two hours and only because I got lost and went around a lake the wrong way!
    But the principle: The most important training is that which is specific to the race: all other training supports specific training, still holds.
    In the pre-specific phases sessions might have to be prioritised based on their benefit to all upcoming races. Some specific sessions may have to be left out, eg some specific sessions for race one to 3 to facilitate a long maintenance fell runs with race 4 in mind. But these long runs can be made more specific by doing them on terrain similar to upcoming shorter races.

    The uphill only race training would resemble flat training in that aerobic power would be developed and extended to eventually resemble specific uphill sessions. If in the midst of other races, the specific phase would be altered with an emphasis including good surfaces as these races are generally held on good trails, and some flat sessions to regain leg turnover.
    Last edited by Turlough; 06-02-2013 at 04:12 PM.

  5. #195
    Senior Member LissaJous's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Mid Wales
    Posts
    806

    Re: Lydiard or Speed Endurance

    Spelling it out in quite a lot of detail....

    Quite sensible for a focus on the British, although terrain plays a part: for most of the races, fast-walking-up-steep-grassy-hills is what you need. Silent Valley's not that hard! About the same as Three Shires.. And with Peris being off the end in September, you don't need to worry too much about losing some of the flat/short speed you may have had earlier in the year.

    Given people's (no names!) often excessive/complicated seasons, some races inevitably get de-prioritized and receive little specific training.

    And finally, June has usually been a mid-season break for me, conceptually if not literally ~ best race results not expected, and many of those earlier sessions revisited.

Similar Threads

  1. 9 Edges endurance AH HELP!
    By Nikki Hinton in forum Beginners
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 18-06-2012, 01:21 PM
  2. The Lydiard Training Method
    By Dynamo Dan in forum Training
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 08-01-2011, 01:25 AM
  3. Speed Vs Endurance??
    By Glenners in forum Training
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: 10-09-2010, 08:11 AM
  4. Endurance Goals
    By ukhursty in forum Long Distance Challenges
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 05-11-2009, 08:52 AM
  5. Paras 10 endurance run
    By vburke in forum Races
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 31-08-2008, 07:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •