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Thread: BGR - groups supporters etc

  1. #1
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    BGR - groups supporters etc

    There seems to be even more interest in the BGR this year! For the sake of the round is it worth limiting recces (and numbers of supporters) so that the route recovers and perhaps ultimately reverts back to something of a nav challenge? I would have thought that one proper recce per leg and then a pacer per leg on the attempt ought to be enough? I know that ultimately people will do whatever they want to do but am interested to know if anyone else has avoided trapesing loads of people around because don't want to contribute to the trods?

    Jules.

  2. #2

    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    It's an age old debate (but that's no reason to not raise it!). The BG is a model of simplicity, with just two rules to abide by. It might be tempting to add more re levels of support but it has the feeling of being a slippery slope into a paternalistic and impractical mess. Still, that doesn't solve te problem so it might be worth establishing a set of principles which we as a club advocate but people can achieve a round whether they choose to stick to them or not. Those principles would include one relating to minimising strain on the route but could also include safety and consideration.

    Rules tend not to allow choice and people try to bend them. Principles remove the 'burden' of enforcement and ratification but work well when deployed to right thinking, intelligent people, the likes of which make up a large proportion of the fellrunning community. Apart from the Welsh obviously.

    This feels like approach already taken in essence when one reads the guidelines at the top of this part of the forum (the 'Sticky'). But listing the two rules and a handful of principles might be a useful way of addressing this issue in a realistic and non-rule based way.

    The route really is cutting up. The difference since 2007 when I went round is really noticeable on Calva, Clough Head, Steel Fell, Bowfell, Yewbarrow, Black Crag (nr Pillar) to name the ones the jump to mind. it is remarkable and 90%+ down to the BG. Now one might argue that wainwright has had a more dramatic effect on the lakes but so what? The fact is there is a problem to solve and the first job is perhaps to take responsibly for it as a 'sport' or whatever we want to call ourselves.


    Has the BG club got a view on this?
    Last edited by Mark Smith; 11-05-2013 at 02:22 PM.

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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    Agree with all that Mark. These trods will continue to develop further unless contenders think about the consequences of huge amounts of recceing and the amount of 'help' on their rounds. I'm all for sociable running but the Bob Graham is a pretty fragile thing and it's not just the ground that's getting eroded but the task itself is changing. If contenders this year don't think about this and do something about it, by 2015 say I'm afraid that we might be left with a substantially different Bob Graham Round.
    Last edited by Jules B; 11-05-2013 at 03:51 PM.

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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    It does get discussed and both Morgan and I have posted on these forums about it.

    These days most people attempt the round clockwise, back in the 1980s when the last surge in attempts and successes took place more attempted the round in an anti-clockwise direction. Why does this matter: well the most delicate ground on the round is that in the back o' Skiddaw so more people trying the round now means that the softer ground, which is the very type that doesn't handle high traffic, is getting lots of footfall. When I did my round in 2005, the "path" down from the fence on Skiddaw over Hare Crag was very faint and you needed to be accurate with your navigation to avoid bashing through heather. The last time I went over that section was two years ago on DT's first attempt and the path was obvious from the fence line and lower down was wide enough for two to run side by side. Sit on Great Calva on a clear day and you can see the path from Skiddaw all the way to the skyline.

    The short section of "path" at the end of the drop off Seat Sandal was obvious in early season ten years ago but will have become more so over the years - last time I went over Dunmail you had trouble seeing the road so I didn't notice what it was actually like. Steel Fell now has steps in the grass where previously there were none. There are options here though and contenders/helpers could take a slightly different line than the one seen on the ground.

    There is no way to police attempts (and the club has no desire to) short of offering advice and guidance. Whether contenders accept that advice is up to them. Personally I don't like to see large groups of helpers on the fells, to me it takes something away from the spirit of the challenge. I had 1 pacer on leg 1; 2 on leg 2; 1 on leg 3 (plus one guy from Esk Pike to Mickledore); 2 on leg 4 and 1 on the fell section of leg 5 (same guy as did leg 1). The club's recommendation is that night sections have a minimum of 2 pacers/helpers for safety reasons, other than that you need one person in attendance to act as witness for ratification purposes and this person can be any of the helpers not in addition to them.

    Recces: once you've been over the route a couple of times, you should know it reasonably well and should only need to head back to check out small sections for which the sensitive paths can be avoided. You certainly don't need to use the actual route for training and it might be better mentally if you don't as you then don't get bored with the route.

    The guidance notes have grown quite a bit as it is in the last few years, whether they should have any additional material is open to question. Also whether anyone does in fact read them is doubtful as I got an email recently saying that the link to the notes on the website didn't work - it had been like that for at least six months and presumably no-one had been interested enough to let me know :closed:

    If anyone's any ideas that might be practical then we'd certainly like to hear them.
    Bob

    http://bobwightman.co.uk/run/bob_graham.php

    Without me you'd be one place nearer the back

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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    Thanks for posting that Bob - highlighted a few good points for contenders this year. Avoiding using the route for training is especially important; much better to get those hilly miles in the legs on terrain that's less vulnerable. It was walking on Great Calva and Steel Fell recently that made me think how obvious the BG route has become in places.

    The idea that club members who have had support go back and support others is one of the great things about the BGR and after doing my round in 2011 I'm going back in a couple of weeks time to support my first round. Likely to be one supporter per leg and I think a couple of us are doing more than one leg. Really looking forward to helping out without having to run the whole thing!

    Would be great if contenders this year gave the route a bit of a rest so that the trods can recover a bit.

    Jules.

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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    I have never understood the need for large amounts of support, pacers, ,sherpa`s and all the rest of the stuff that seems to be necessary for one or two folk to claim a successful 24 hrs or less on the hills.

    Why for e.g. can`t say three or 4 aspiring BG rounders get there heads together pool there experience, place some food/Supply stashes the day before an attempt and then get out and do it, that way the summits are verified by all in the group and the safety issues are also covered.

    Then if the whole group succeed then that has lessened the impact on the route by three further individual attempts and there posse.

    Based on my own experiences in the hills, my true passion is Solo, however I find a small (2 maybe 3 at a push )in a group working towards the same goal can be a great and immensely satisfying experience especially when logistics are kept to a minimum as the saying go`s two`s company any more is a crowd.

    Just my view and not looking for and argument,
    Last edited by JohnK; 12-05-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post

    If anyone's any ideas that might be practical then we'd certainly like to hear them.
    It is a very real problem, and any solution would have to be radical, which would cause much consternation with anyone concerned with the BGR.

    Approach the National Parks authority for help repairing the path in the Hare Crag area, i'm thinking them duck board things over the boggy ground would be good for this area. I can hear people pouring scorn over 'sanitizing' the round.

    More drastically, the BGR club, could stop accepting succsesful contenders for a period of 5 years or something, straight away the terrain back o skiddaw would start to recover as no-one would ever dream of running there without the BGR

    Encourage contenders to use alternative descent route to Skiddaw House, over Sale How ( give contenders 30minutes grace for using alternative route ), obviously this may create another problem area / new trod. But it doesn't have to be a permanet change, just few years until this area recovers.

    People might say the area out the back of Skiddaw is of very little natural value anyway, so what if an extra trod has been developed, the whole of our sport makes use of such trods in every race and every training run ever ran!

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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    It does get discussed and both Morgan and I have posted on these forums about it.

    If anyone's any ideas that might be practical then we'd certainly like to hear them.
    Bob is correct. The issue of overuse has been raised by both of us, not least by me recently here:

    http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...408#post538408

    Having had what I can only describe as embarrassing conversations with, variously, the Threlkeld Residents Association, the National Trust and Copeland Borough Council in recent years about various aspects of contender and supporter behaviour, the last thing I want is a call to enter into debate with either the NT as landowner/trustee or the National Park Authority about the route itself; but I fear the day may come sooner than I wish.

    The three conversations I refer to above were about topics where the Club can try and has tried to have an effect on people's behaviour by encouraging common sense and basic manners.

    But the overuse issue is more difficult to solve or even mitigate while the challenge maintains its popularity.

    So, like Bob, I'd be happy to hear of thoughts for suggestions as to how we can limit the risks inherent in the current level of footfall, especially bearing in mind the recent weather which is compounding the problems in the sensitive areas.

    Morgan
    The only one who can tell you "You can't" is you. And you don't have to listen.

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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    I can't see a huge problem. Compared to other major environmental issues, a bit of erosion at the back of skiddaw is miniscule and if you want wilderness, don't do the BG. There are loads of footpaths in the lakes. The BG is just another 'path'. Its a honeypot and we might as well contain any damage to the honeypot as has been the policy for snowdon. There are plenty of other routes to try but very few people are interested unless its one of the major three rounds. Personally, I like trying a route with minimal or no recceing and no-one to guide you round, but thats not most runners cup of tea. I don't see why you need more than one person to accompany you on each leg. The logistics are horrible with large teams and it loses all spontaneity, but that's the way it is. Its up to each person how they want to do it as long as they don't make a nuisance of themselves with noise in the middle of the night, etc. Not for me, but each to his own.

  10. #10
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    Re: BGR - groups supporters et

    What's the impact of the trod/path out the back o' Skiddaw? Not a flippant question; I'm genuinely not clear on what its negative environmental impact is. To my mind that's the only really significant track caused by the round, and even then only in the lower sections across the wetter sections of ground. Yeah, you can see the thin trod heading up to the Skiddaw summit ridge, but it's hardly an eyesore. Also, maybe half-way down there's a little trod breaking off to the left which I'm pretty sure isn't related to the round (bad route choice if it is!). If this is the case, then at least some of the footfall higher up must come from other 'users' taking the trod down from the fence before heading left.

    The trod off Seat Sandal and up Steel Fell is pretty minimal really. I guess higher up on Steel Fell it's getting a bit loose, but, unless I'm missing something, I don't see what the big problem is. The Seat Sandal trod, like the ones up to Rossett Pike and under Black Crag on Pillar, is used by walkers as well BG aspirants. Isn't this just the way it goes? People use the hills and paths/trods develop.

    It would seem sensible for the club to ask all contenders to be mindful of their impact on the environment, but against the background of general use the Lakeland hills experience I reckon it amounts to very little.

    For what it's worth, if the club did want to actively encourage less footfall on the route, I think advocating minimal recces would be far more beneficial than smaller scale attempts. On the day, there ain't much difference between two/three/four pairs of feet, but the same lines being recced over and over again probably does account for the majority of BG impact on trods and paths.
    Geoff Clarke

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