Style and BG Club Membership

[simon cox]

Stolly,

You are right that a solo BG wouldn't be that hard to organise with plenty of Road crossings, I did much of the Paddy solo for the reasons you outline, though as the weather crapped out and night descended I really needed the support (I got) on the last leg.

Solo Ramsay's are different, as there is only one easy access point, you either need to carry a vast amount of food or put down some food drops which is a big logistically effort, I am in the process of doing this! And I would like to have some support on the final section, as when you are tired the emotional support of another person makes a big difference to me.

Maybe The Question should have been what do people want the Club to be? Without access to the stats, how many people just see the BG as a challenge to "tick off" then move on, rather than it being more of a community where people continue to have a special relationship with the Round and help others "on the shoulders of giants" to achieve something amazing; I think soloists probably end up having more of a "relationship" with the Round than many who "tick the boxes" (and move onto the next big goal); maybe The Club should have a questionnaire? Organisations that dont evolve typically become irrelevant at an earlier point, so defending BG Club tradition may not be in the Clubs best interest.

Cheers,

[Bob]

That's a different question. If you have any suggestions then come along to the AGM in July (see the thread I started about it) and make your case.

I would say that most who attempt the round feel part of a community: strangers have come to my aid and I've helped out on strangers' rounds and I know many who've done the same. The club is a very loose collection of individuals and certainly not like a normal running club. Obviously some move on - if you did the round thirty years ago, is it still an active part of your life?

A questionnaire? It's easy to think that in these days everyone has email so it's just a matter of doing a mass email to get people's views but we don't have email addresses for maybe 80% of members so it would have to be by post with associated costs. And what would you ask - questionnaires are exceedingly hard to get right without, even unintentional, leading questions.

[Corniceman]

[ but of course top roping in climbing has always been viewed as cheating, )

Simon. I am not sure where you got this premise from? Top roping has and even more so in recent years been a generally accepted way of working a route prior to a clean ground up lead. Look at many of the recent grit stone horrors and also the hours of work sport climbers put into working a route prior to a red point at what ever grade they climb. God, I should know having worked Mecca Extension at The Tor for so many years! I do agree that it kind of brings a route down to a 'new' level of managing risk, and I do agree that any ground up, on site ascent is in many ways a more formidable achievement.
As for Broad Stand and The BG. It shouldn't really matter that much nor should it on the Inn Pin or any other obstacle encountered on a run/endure challenge. I say that because I think the challenge is more about the whole event and getting round as fast as possible, rather than the purity of the climbing for those very short sections.

[simon cox]

Bob,

It is a different question, but probably the more important one as the views of the broader Club membership are the most important, my views are just personal thoughts...

I had a quick look at your AGM thread, and can't make the 21st as I would like to have come along, I will PM you my considered thoughts...

But whilst I think the Club should embrace change, I for one am very grateful for what it does and has done for me, both an excellent Dinner, and the points towards the UTMB, and The Round itself has a fairly unique spot in my life... and I still dream of my own extension taking in the Southern Lakes fells, and I am thinking that to do a loop taking in Coniston Old Man, Dow, Harter Fell would be hard for me to do in under 24 ;-) !

But we dont do things because they are easy.... I love the JFK quote, "we will go to the Moon, we will go to the Moon in this decade..."

Cheers,

[simon cox]

Corniceman,

Dont take me word for word, but you make my point better than me, "Top roping has and even more so in recent years been a generally accepted way of working a route prior to a clean ground up lead" i.e. the top rope ascent isn't valid, it needs to be completed with a clean lead or solo...

As Bob Wightman points out Bob Graham himself didn't use a top rope, so using one if you take a very traditional approach is a step back in terms of style - I personally think it is odd that the Club does not count solo attempts but top ropes are OK; however, I am suggesting to Bob that it is discussed at the AGM, unfortunately I cant be there due to family holiday commitments.

Cheers,

[TheGrump]

Don't get the point of this thread.
The BG Club doesn't own the 'rights', the name, the route, the land etc., which compose the BG round.
It exists for its own purposes, among which are a great day out in the Lakes, camaraderie, raising money for charity.
It has some arbitrary rules. If they choose to exclude solo rounds, rounds over 24 hours, or anything else from membership - so what?
Or is it the case that this upsets devotees of the 'tick box' culture, who misguidedly believe that the club IS the BG round, and are in a hurry to move onto the next '10 things to do before....'.

[Stolly]

Dumb question but by 'top roping', which is presumably climbing jargon, we're just talking about roping that dodgy bit of Broad Stand (and we're not talking about roping both the top and the bottom )

Surely we're only talking about plus or minus 15 minutes here and a couple of hundred feet of climb. In my case this Saturday, we're planning to descend BS with a rope (undoubtedly in the wet) and I'm just hoping to survive and not 'lose' too much time going this way. Jesus the weather being good or bad can make an hour's difference on its own, wearing fell shoes rather than plimsoles will make for an advantage, using a gps will, heck even using a map and compass will. Its kind of a mute point if you ask me maikng such a big thing of what is such a small part of the round

[simon cox]

Stolly and The Grump,

The thought was triggered by The Cuillen Traverse "rules" in the latest record Thread, which are purist (but possibly not accepted as The Rules)... and as a climber I have some resonance with the view that top roping isn't good form... also I suspected (which Bob W concurs with) that Bob Graham didn't use a top rope... but it was really this "non purist" practice being viewed as acceptable but solo rounds not being acceptable to "The Club" that led me posting the thread... I dont actually care about whether people top rope Broadstand though I would like to see solo rounds being accepted and celebrated by The Club - but that is for the Club to decide and something I will raise via Bob. I would also like to see more honorary memberships given out for particularly gritty performances so that those Rounds can be viewed as bigger successes than they typically are - though I think there would be less support for this idea, but it could go to someone who has just supported loads of people and never completed as was the case with Fred I think. Cheers,

[Bob]

Honorary/associate memberships tend to be handed out to those who've done a lot of supporting work over several or many years. There's a total of 17 so far. One of those, Andrew Chamings did actually complete a round over ten days. Andrew is paraplegic following a spinal injury.

How do you define "gritty"? Two years ago on "Fred's Round" during one of the worst day's weather I have seen in the Lakes, and I've seen a few, two contenders got round in under 24hrs. I was glad to only have been up on the tops for a couple of hours. For me, humid conditions are a nightmare so should rounds in those conditions, successful or not be considered worthy for honorary membership? I struggled supporting just one leg on a hot day.

The Grump has it pretty well spot on: simple rules for a special endeavour.

[Corniceman]

Corniceman,

Dont take me word for word, but you make my point better than me, "Top roping has and even more so in recent years been a generally accepted way of working a route prior to a clean ground up lead" i.e. the top rope ascent isn't valid, it needs to be completed with a clean lead or solo...

As Bob Wightman points out Bob Graham himself didn't use a top rope, so using one if you take a very traditional approach is a step back in terms of style - I personally think it is odd that the Club does not count solo attempts but top ropes are OK; however, I am suggesting to Bob that it is discussed at the AGM, unfortunately I cant be there due to family holiday commitments.

Cheers,

Simon. Yes you make a really good point there re top roping validity. I am glad that I didn't use a rope as I don't want my ascent of the BGR invalidated or put to a second string attempt for not going round clean!!
Really interested in your extended round. I am 55 next year and thinking of a 55 at 55 round and wondering what peaks to add. A must for me are summits in the Grasmore group in addition to Pavey Ark etc. I had never thought about going further South and will get a map out tonight. It looks like a huge ask though to include those peaks you list and still tie it in with the other 42 within 24 hours.