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Thread: Le Tour 2013

  1. #21
    Master shaunaneto's Avatar
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Penalty time for Cav?
    pies

  2. #22
    Master Harry H Howgill's Avatar
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by shaunaneto View Post
    Penalty time for Cav?
    Nah. Racing incident.
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  3. #23
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor74 View Post
    Paul Kimmage interviewed on Newstalk here in Ireland said today was "fxxxxxx sxxx", noting that Froome's times very similar to Armstrong and how well he looked at the finish compared to other cyclists. Of course that alone does not mean he has done anything wrong, and no one can possibly suggest he is tainted given the law of defamation, but I guess cycling has only itself to blame when extraordinary performances provoke suspicion rather than praise.
    Not so. Ignore kimmage, a scratched record who has no other tune to sing and is still bitter and twisted about his own complete failure as a rider.

    Listen to frank andreu in an interview with kimmage instead who said the power and time that froome achieved was not way out compared to history, or comparable with the EPO generation.

    Also read the report "not normal" that demonstrates what was obvious to observers at the time from the record times on such as alpe huez, that it is almost inconceivable that even such as indurains times could be achieved without "assistance", and all those above and below him in the records were admitted or proven dopers.. That was an entire generation, not an Armstrong thing much as Travis Tygart would like to pretend other wise.

  4. #24
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysinjured View Post
    Not so. Ignore kimmage, a scratched record who has no other tune to sing and is still bitter and twisted about his own complete failure as a rider.

    Listen to frank andreu in an interview with kimmage instead who said the power and time that froome achieved was not way out compared to history, or comparable with the EPO generation.

    Also read the report "not normal" that demonstrates what was obvious to observers at the time from the record times on such as alpe huez, that it is almost inconceivable that even such as indurains times could be achieved without "assistance", and all those above and below him in the records were admitted or proven dopers.. That was an entire generation, not an Armstrong thing much as Travis Tygart would like to pretend other wise.
    I think it's a bit harsh to say ignore Kimmage, one of the few who consistently called out Armstrong, and listen instead to a cyclist who used EPO and led the Postal team alongside Armstrong for years. Kimmage may be bitter, he may not have been as successful as Andreu, but if he took what Andreu took who knows what he might have """achieved""". Either way, he was giving his honest reaction after a day in which he was not alone in thinking "uh oh". And one thing you gotta say, unlike Andreu he has a better track record when it comes to honesty!

  5. #25
    Master shaunaneto's Avatar
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Hate to derail the thread even further, really the topic should have a thread of it's own.

    But the day I trust the current crop of cyclist isn't due for another 10 years or so yet. It'll come hopefully, but why the hell should I trust them? Where there is money there is muck. And we have been lied to consistently for decades. And not just the EPO "era", they've pretty much always "cheated" with drugs. They only didnt cheat with EPO during Coppi's days because it wasn't available. given the choice theyd have been off there nuts on the stuff. And at this level of competition, with so much to gain from even tiny "marginal gains" whether that's a boost on race day. Or a recovery boost after race day. If your not seeing EPO era levels if performance it's quite possible it's because nobody is that stupid to use it in that quantity.

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Or thrice, or..... well you get it.

    And regarding Kimmage being bitter and twisted, if I'd been that driven to succeed as to make it to pro cycling ranks and been through what he'd been through. Yeh, I'd be pretty bitter and twisted about it as well.

    Trust them if you like, but you'll have to ignore the lessons of history to do so.
    pies

  6. #26
    Master that_fjell_guy's Avatar
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Kimmage may be a broken record and/or bitter but at least he's been consistent over two decades, and you wonder how many other top level cyclists have been treated like he was. And as for unsuccessful I guess it all depends on what you call success...he cycled the Tour and that wasn't too bad for starters. The fact that he was forced out of the sport because he preferred to keep his health doesn't make him a failure in my eyes. As for trusting the competitors I'm afraid the truth is that, as I'm sure has been said elsewhere, most mainline sports are full of drug takers. Are we all 100% sure about Mo!? My policy is if I enjoy watching it, I enjoy watching it...I wonder about the performances for sure but its the way it is now and pretty much always has been.

    Cav!? I think he knew he'd made an error, but I don't think there was intent as such. Bit of red mist as he felt he'd been impeded?
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  7. #27
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Conor74 View Post
    I think it's a bit harsh to say ignore Kimmage, one of the few who consistently called out Armstrong, and listen instead to a cyclist who used EPO and led the Postal team alongside Armstrong for years. Kimmage may be bitter, he may not have been as successful as Andreu, but if he took what Andreu took who knows what he might have """achieved""". Either way, he was giving his honest reaction after a day in which he was not alone in thinking "uh oh". And one thing you gotta say, unlike Andreu he has a better track record when it comes to honesty!
    I think the way such as Kimmage attacked Armstrong with scant or no evidence in a particularly childish way ( remember the cancer jesus interview? ) actually served to give Armstrong a reason to marginalize the nay sayers, helping to prolong the concealment. And in attacking one man - Armstrong - rather than all of those of that generation, including such as Indurain, it also served to distort the realit.

    Walsh was a better researcher and covered new ground, but no better as a front man.
    Anyone who watched " all the presidents men" saw how aiming too high before building enough evidence eg attacking Haldemman saw how it almost scuppered the investigation.

    The reality is that both McQuaid and Travis Tygart- the ones who should have acted - sat on their hands. And when Tygart did act with a windfall coming from the fallout from a grand jury, and a blackmail threat made good from Landis, Tygart wholly misrepresented the problem. He had to say " biggest and most sophisticated" in order to say he cracked the biggest. Yet Armstrong was not even the father of doping in USPOSTAL let alone the rest of the peloton.

    Ask yourself Why did Tygart or Mcquaid fail to act on the Jaksche confession years before?
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 10-07-2013 at 11:09 AM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    I had some suspicions on Stage 6 and what happened on yesterdays stage just underlined them.
    I think it's clear that Cav's lead out train is not the strongest in the Tour for a change this year.
    I think both Lotto and Argos have actually worked that out and have also worked out that if they can "innocently" impede Cav in the final 500m then they can stop him winning, which of course then gives their guy a much greater chance of success.
    On Stage 6 one of the lotto train looked over their shoulder as they just dropped off on a bend perhaps 600 out and veered out to the left in front of Cav forcing him to take a wider line and cost him the chance to be involved in the race for first.
    Then yesterday Veelers clear as day looked over his right shoulder as he started to take his foot off the gas and equally as clearly "drifted" from one side of the white line to the other.
    I think Cav is going to have to consider ditching his train and doing as he did last year when with Sky and just mixing it as Sagan does. Let the other teams do the work as the use of his own train is a distraction that has put him in a poor position 1km out and allowed the other guys to block him off.

  9. #29
    alwaysinjured
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I had some suspicions on Stage 6 and what happened on yesterdays stage just underlined them.
    I think it's clear that Cav's lead out train is not the strongest in the Tour for a change this year.
    I think both Lotto and Argos have actually worked that out and have also worked out that if they can "innocently" impede Cav in the final 500m then they can stop him winning, which of course then gives their guy a much greater chance of success.
    On Stage 6 one of the lotto train looked over their shoulder as they just dropped off on a bend perhaps 600 out and veered out to the left in front of Cav forcing him to take a wider line and cost him the chance to be involved in the race for first.
    Then yesterday Veelers clear as day looked over his right shoulder as he started to take his foot off the gas and equally as clearly "drifted" from one side of the white line to the other.
    I think Cav is going to have to consider ditching his train and doing as he did last year when with Sky and just mixing it as Sagan does. Let the other teams do the work as the use of his own train is a distraction that has put him in a poor position 1km out and allowed the other guys to block him off.
    It is a shame that when high road collapsed, another team did not take the package of eisel, renshaw and cav. They were invincible! Although Renshaw is rumoured to be joining Cav next year.

  10. #30
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    Re: Le Tour 2013

    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysinjured View Post
    I think the way such as Kimmage attacked Armstrong with scant or no evidence in a particularly childish way ( remember the cancer jesus interview? ) actually served to give Armstrong a reason to marginalize the nay sayers, helping to prolong the concealment. And in attacking one man - Armstrong - rather than all of those of that generation, including such as Indurain, it also served to distort the realit.
    I think it isn't childish to be correct, his choice of language in the "cancer" interview was poor, but nevertheless the thrust of what he said was spot on, and I don't accept that his attacks on Armstrong going back years actually served to help Armstrong. Anyone who stood up and said Armstrong was a cheat, whether in strong language or carefully researched articles, or whatever way available, was 100% correct. It must have been incredibly frustrating to do so while most of his colleagues acted as cheerleaders and are far far more complicit in your charge of prolonging the concealment, so I am not surprised that sometimes the language was ill judged, it wasn't nearly as ill judged as the fundamental position of most in the sport who stood idly by and applauded Armstrong. As for Indurain, Kimmage only joined the Sunday Times 10 years ago, before that he was with an Irish newspaper, subject to Irish defamation laws, one presumes a far more limited budget and desire on the part of his editor to go prodding a story that might cause them exposure and would have had little traction here. The ST gave him the freedom to do the right thing. I find him a bit painful, joyless all the time, I don't like his writing style, he seems to fancy himself as a bit of a James Joyce but on Armstrong I wouldn't fault him.
    Last edited by Conor74; 10-07-2013 at 08:46 AM.

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