Sub 3 hour Marathon.

[IainR]

Think I said higher up - more like 6.10 pace

The worst pace to train at in my view is junk mileage at 7.0 - 7.15 , do that and the marathon will feel too fast to maintain. Use the midweek semi to program pace not slower than 6.40. Then nowhere near that for longs eg 7.30+ or offroad/ldwa.

I knocked 10-15 min of my times in a matter of months when I stopped doing junk miles in that forbidden zone, reduced the miles and made the core workouts specific. I was also less tired all the time!

I think the long run needs to be sharpish... or at least finishing around marathon pace for the final 5k..

I do my 20 milers around 6:40-6:50 pace.. finishing 6:10-6:15 pace... marathon pace is close to 6 for me.

For me the key sessions are long run, 1 med-long run, MP runs, and longer reps/tempo sessions.. 1-2 miles.. then the bulk of my mileage is around 6:50-6:55 pace..

[saz]

Make sure you do a good number of your long runs on flat even surfaces, without gates, stile etc, a road marathon is about being able to handle 26.2 miles of continuous repetitive foot plants - I know a good number of quality fell runners who when transferring to the road end struggle with cramping hamstrings in the latter stages ..

good luck

[Stolly]

Well next year's London marathon will be a big wake up call for me. I've checked back through my strava log for this year and, so far, I have done exactly 2 (yes 2!!) 'pacey' runs. The first was a lunchtime run along the canal in Leeds and even that had a hill of sorts in the middle and the second was the relatively unhilly Commondale Beacon fell race a couple of weeks ago. This and this. I found the canal run easyish mind although the fell race was a fair old gut buster. Sub 3 hrs 30 might be a sensible goal for me

[alwaysinjured]

Well next year's London marathon will be a big wake up call for me. I've checked back through my strava log for this year and, so far, I have done exactly 2 (yes 2!!) 'pacey' runs. The first was a lunchtime run along the canal in Leeds and even that had a hill of sorts in the middle and the second was the relatively unhilly Commondale Beacon fell race a couple of weeks ago. This and this. I found the canal run easyish mind although the fell race was a fair old gut buster. Sub 3 hrs 30 might be a sensible goal for me

Since when did water flow 300 feet uphill
Using the 500 feet a mile formula, that run of yours was worth 7 min pace maybe.

As saz says (PS she is marathon royalty! even now in the top handful on the ladies UK all time marathon list!!) - doubt if she ever ran so slow as 3hours even in training. She actually won an open marathon, beat all the men too.

Hard to judge until you do some actual hard surfaces
Roads are a two edged sword.

On the one hand, it allows spring return to your stride so that you run faster than on more absorbent surfaces, on the other that constant pounding can give serious injury problems, unless you introduce it gradually. I have seen off road runners going on road suffer other stuff like shin splints, ITB syndrome, and achilles problems too.

I think saz was more or less put out of marathons because of back troubles arising from the hard surface, but still carried on to do stunning performances on the fell, where the surface is more forgiving. (hope she does not mind me saying so!)

Off topic, if you watch the london, you can see the ones who use treadmills to train, by long lollopy overstriding, because of the extra bounce they are used to. They never last much past half way either! That said - Powerjogs (if they are still made) always a hard bed, and I could reproduce my performances on treadmills on the roads with them.

So (I think- saz may disagree, and if she does, listen to her) in my programme above, as a bare minimum, the semilong , long intervals and pace session need all to be on the road. Some of the longs can be off road, where it is about extending endurance limits whilst continuous running, which is why LDWA is better than fell.

BTW - Try dismantled railway paths. There are some brilliant ones for off road longs!

[saz]

Would not disagree with that, I probably did too much on roads early on, everyone is of course different, but making sure you are comfortable running at pace on flat decent surfaces is key in my experience

s

[Tahr]

The worst pace to train at in my view is junk mileage at 7.0 - 7.15 , do that and the marathon will feel too fast to maintain.

Hi Mike that leaves me in a bit of a dilemma, to crack the 3 hours I need to run at a bit under 7 minute mile pace (6:52 I think) therefore I was going to do a long run for 10 miles adding a mile per week up to 18 miles at 7 MMP, is that pace for me “Junk miles?” also what about slower runs say 8-9 MMP would they be classed as junk miles or endurance building, this is road running, not obviously hill running.

then the bulk of my mileage is around 6:50-6:55 pace..

Hi Iain, thanks for your input, as I would guess you would be a lot faster than I would every be should I try and do a bulk of my mileage at 7:30 pace? Is this then junk mileage for me?

really dont trust strava for your stats, it plays havoc with mine and many others that i know. It has a habit of not calculating distance or time correctly

Hi Cyclops, I know what you mean with Strava, I timed my run with my Suunto the total time on the watch was the same as the Strava time so it must have been about right, although I did leg 2 of the BG in 3:36 hours the other week, while I know my actual time was a bit over 4 hours, even allowing for a few stops to talk to other BGs, photos, pausing for checking compass in the clag did not add up to half an hour. (be nice if it did mind).

Started training with marathon in mind yesterday, ran 10 miles in the morning with rucksack (to work) then at night 7 miles with a club training session wearing a weight vest, mile warm up followed by hill reps, 250m hill, 30% incline on the road, sprint up then jog back as recovery rep X 19. cool down jog back to start.

ATB

Tahr

[Stolly]

Haha strava had me doing leg 3 of the BG in something like 4 hrs 30!!!! Its rubbish if you stop and start or go up really steep climbs. That said it should be bang on for road and trail running where you are running consistantly

[dominion]

Why the obsession with the weight vest? I can understand a rucksack to work for practical purposes, but not the weight vest.

[Tahr]

Club coach said “better runners bring weight vests if you wish”, in our little club I guess I am better than the average runner , not that it means much in my book I am only a average hill runner. The vests helps average the speed of the group I guess.

I used to use one when running with the wife but since she had a cycling accident and broke her back in two places she doesn’t run any more, she will walk though.

ATB

Tahr

[alwaysinjured]

Hi Mike that leaves me in a bit of a dilemma, to crack the 3 hours I need to run at a bit under 7 minute mile pace (6:52 I think) therefore I was going to do a long run for 10 miles adding a mile per week up to 18 miles at 7 MMP, is that pace for me “Junk miles?” also what about slower runs say 8-9 MMP would they be classed as junk miles or endurance building, this is road running, not obviously hill running.



Hi Iain, thanks for your input, as I would guess you would be a lot faster than I would every be should I try and do a bulk of my mileage at 7:30 pace? Is this then junk mileage for me?



Hi Cyclops, I know what you mean with Strava, I timed my run with my Suunto the total time on the watch was the same as the Strava time so it must have been about right, although I did leg 2 of the BG in 3:36 hours the other week, while I know my actual time was a bit over 4 hours, even allowing for a few stops to talk to other BGs, photos, pausing for checking compass in the clag did not add up to half an hour. (be nice if it did mind).

Started training with marathon in mind yesterday, ran 10 miles in the morning with rucksack (to work) then at night 7 miles with a club training session wearing a weight vest, mile warm up followed by hill reps, 250m hill, 30% incline on the road, sprint up then jog back as recovery rep X 19. cool down jog back to start.

ATB

Tahr

I don't think thats any good Tahr.

Reality is if you want to crack 3 hours in April time, you must be capable of cruising easily at (say) 9 miles in 6.40 now - it is a lot slower than the 1.23 that you need for the half which is more like 6.20 pace

In any event to run the marathon at equal effort you will slow down, and that probably means doing the first 20 or so in 6.40 anyway, to build a cushion of 3 minutes (2.13/4 say) - maybe 2 mins of which you will then probably lose over the last 10K as a result of slowing down on equal effort to aim for say 2.58.

So splits of say 1.28, 1.31

You can do reverse splits - I have done it, even making the last 6 miles the fastest, but doing it that way it feels like a 20 mile warm up jog to an eyeballs out sprint: and unless you are confident knowing you can. you will probably fail in attempting reverse. So 1.26-1.28 is the sensible range at halfway.

So you have to program your body to run easily at 6.40 - indeed halfway at 1.27/8 has to feel easy.

If you do that semi long at 6.35-6.40, and taper properly (losing the miles not the quality) - on the day it feels so easy and you will be actually slowing yourself down, although at London even in the top 1000 you still don't get your own space around till after cutty sark: so the first couple of miles can be hindered by idiots who always want to start at the front, knowing they will finish at the back.

I once had a stand up row (moi?? as if!) with a guy next to me who had a schedule on his arm, we were standing at the 2.50 marker. I looked at his schedule - discovered it said 4 hours, and told him he was ruining the race for at least 10000 runners behind us. (days before chip timing) He Didn't care. You will lose even a minute in the first couple of miles to such idiots.



So my view 7-10 pace is programming the wrong pace, they really are the junk miles and having grooved that pace, 6.40 will feel too fast.

So I think the 3 paces are...
6.35/6.40 build 9 -18 semi long (as you get fitter, you may hit 6.30)
Long intervals / lactate threshold etc at (say) 6 min pace efforts
Pace runs of 5/6 similar/ not much over that at 6-6.10
Long runs , over 7.15 pace - even 7.45 just time on feet or LDWA - or if racing half/20, leave out the pace run day before.

Save your energy for the semi long - see if you can go sub 6.30 after which getting to half way and even 16 is so easy in 6.40 on the day. That one session is hard and vital. As are the long intervals. Don't make the long one hard too.

If you cannot do 6.40 for hour some months before the marahton, you probably cannot do the 1.23 half in late winter/ early spring, and I doubt you can do the sub 3.