Israel and Gaza

[Knightrunner]

Aye, it's not really fair to blame religion. Religion being used as a justification/motivation is symptomatic of a deeper problem within the human psychological make up, not the cause.

There are enough wars where we have found none-religious reasons for war to know it's not necessary. Religion might be thrown into the mix to help sway the mob, but there's often other reasons too. Did the British throw people into concentration to die by their 10s of thousands in South Africa because of religion, or gold and diamonds? Did the Romans invade Dacia for religion? The proxy conflicts of the Cold War? The list of pathetic justifications for taking someone's life for your own gains is seemingly endless.

For me, I'd suggest root causes are all tied into 'us and them' 'fear and greed' we don't need Religion to make state sanctioned and organised mass murder happen. It comes up a lot as an excuse, but we'd find another reason without it. In the Middle East it'd probably be oil, farm land and water, and spheres of influence.

If as a species we could get it into our thick skulls that there is no us and them, just us, then perhaps we would be a damn sight less violent/tolerant of violence on our (alleged) behalf. Not that I believe the human Ego is really capable of such a thing. We do love to have our own identities.

As for Israel and Gaza, neither side is right. But right now one side is a damn sight more wrong than the other. And it's the one with Fighter jets.

Well said that man. The trouble starts proverbially in the playground, if we don't teach acceptance and tolerance this becomes tribal hooliganism, I don't like them next door, why don't they speak English, they started it, they deserve to die, blah blah blah. You've got to try to embrace people in your own circles and shout about tolerance to spread the word.

[mr brightside]

Phew, where to start?
Science does not lead to more tolerant, less war-mongering people: evidence - USA, many European countries, any country which has colonised.

I was going to cite the US as an exception and a rule, depending upon which party is in the Whitehouse. GWB is a deep souther and constantly used religious references in his speeches re. Iraq/Afghanistan.

Aye, it's not really fair to blame religion. Religion being used as a justification/motivation is symptomatic of a deeper problem within the human psychological make up, not the cause.

There are enough wars where we have found none-religious reasons for war to know it's not necessary. Religion might be thrown into the mix to help sway the mob, but there's often other reasons too. Did the British throw people into concentration to die by their 10s of thousands in South Africa because of religion, or gold and diamonds? Did the Romans invade Dacia for religion? The proxy conflicts of the Cold War? The list of pathetic justifications for taking someone's life for your own gains is seemingly endless.

For me, I'd suggest root causes are all tied into 'us and them' 'fear and greed' we don't need Religion to make state sanctioned and organised mass murder happen. It comes up a lot as an excuse, but we'd find another reason without it. In the Middle East it'd probably be oil, farm land and water, and spheres of influence.

If as a species we could get it into our thick skulls that there is no us and them, just us, then perhaps we would be a damn sight less violent/tolerant of violence on our (alleged) behalf. Not that I believe the human Ego is really capable of such a thing. We do love to have our own identities.

As for Israel and Gaza, neither side is right. But right now one side is a damn sight more wrong than the other. And it's the one with Fighter jets.

I didn't blame religion entirely, i said it has a lot to do with it- which i reckon it does.

I don't think Israel is more wrong than Hamas, when you say that it is i'm assuming you refer to the massive humanitarian crisis created by Israli air strikes? It's been well noted that geurilla tactics include using human sheilds such as densely populated areas and schools. If Hamas don't like the result of Israeli efforts to neutralise the threat they could always stop firing rockets and digging tunnels; they've been busy little bees, their tunneling skills would probably impress a victorian navvie.

I think aswell that getting the true picture of who did what to who is very difficult, and the media cannot be trusted to be unbiased.

[mr brightside]

Religion is to blame.

I didn't blame religion entirely, i said it has a lot to do with it- which i reckon it does.

I'm not being consistent here, i retract my first comment.

[CL]

Aye, it's not really fair to blame religion. Religion being used as a justification/motivation is symptomatic of a deeper problem within the human psychological make up, not the cause.

There are enough wars where we have found none-religious reasons for war to know it's not necessary. Religion might be thrown into the mix to help sway the mob, but there's often other reasons too. Did the British throw people into concentration to die by their 10s of thousands in South Africa because of religion, or gold and diamonds? Did the Romans invade Dacia for religion? The proxy conflicts of the Cold War? The list of pathetic justifications for taking someone's life for your own gains is seemingly endless.

For me, I'd suggest root causes are all tied into 'us and them' 'fear and greed' we don't need Religion to make state sanctioned and organised mass murder happen. It comes up a lot as an excuse, but we'd find another reason without it. In the Middle East it'd probably be oil, farm land and water, and spheres of influence.

If as a species we could get it into our thick skulls that there is no us and them, just us, then perhaps we would be a damn sight less violent/tolerant of violence on our (alleged) behalf. Not that I believe the human Ego is really capable of such a thing. We do love to have our own identities.

As for Israel and Gaza, neither side is right. But right now one side is a damn sight more wrong than the other. And it's the one with Fighter jets.

Some good points but then you contradict everything you say with your last paragraph. It's nonsense and is one of the reasons why violence is seen as a means to achieve ones goals. Identify the good side as the culprits and you inspire the savages all around the world.

The fault for the conflict in Gaza lies with the Palestinians. They are in the majority an irrational people who hate the Jews because they brought reason and technology into their lives. Whatever claims they have to land has been lost through time and their own desire to slaughter innocent people. All the deaths on both sides are the responsibility of Hamas and its supporters for starting the trouble. If you look back over the last decade you'll see that the Palestinians can't even get on amongst themselves. Killings amongst different factions and vast corruption in areas they control.

Israel despite its religion is a civilised country and the majority of people rational. They have to deal with constant attacks from savages and when they retaliate all the 'war and peace' brigade are squealing about the injustice of it all, but they don't squeal when the Palestinians hurl rockets over the border. Oh no you don't even hear a squeak from them.

Israel should forget all about these ceasefires and get the job done. Re-occupy the Gaza Strip and destroy Hamas' ability to wage war.

[Derby Tup]

Have you been to Israel Chris? I've only been five or six times and then only for a week or so at a time, but anyway I'm not sure I agree with you

[CL]

I was going to cite the US as an exception and a rule, depending upon which party is in the Whitehouse. GWB is a deep souther and constantly used religious references in his speeches re. Iraq/Afghanistan.



I didn't blame religion entirely, i said it has a lot to do with it- which i reckon it does.

I don't think Israel is more wrong than Hamas, when you say that it is i'm assuming you refer to the massive humanitarian crisis created by Israli air strikes? It's been well noted that geurilla tactics include using human sheilds such as densely populated areas and schools. If Hamas don't like the result of Israeli efforts to neutralise the threat they could always stop firing rockets and digging tunnels; they've been busy little bees, their tunneling skills would probably impress a victorian navvie.

I think aswell that getting the true picture of who did what to who is very difficult, and the media cannot be trusted to be unbiased.

Regards your last paragraph: don't get bogged down in tit for tat. Just ask yourself WHO started the trouble and apportion all blame to them.

[CL]

Have you been to Israel Chris? I've only been five or six times and then only for a week or so at a time, but anyway I'm not sure I agree with you

No but I know someone who has. Anyway your comments above are precisely why I would NEVER share a tent with you. You haven't got anything to say on the issue as you aren't sure.

[CL]

Well said that man. The trouble starts proverbially in the playground, if we don't teach acceptance and tolerance this becomes tribal hooliganism, I don't like them next door, why don't they speak English, they started it, they deserve to die, blah blah blah. You've got to try to embrace people in your own circles and shout about tolerance to spread the word.

To me this is what Lissa Juicy was against in regard to morality - arbitrary rules. Tolerance and acceptance depend on ones code of values. Should we tolerate all actions in the name of tolerance and acceptance or is it right to draw the line? Of course what people really mean by tolerance is 'my way or the high way.'

Highly intolerant in my view!

[Deadlegs]

Blimey CL, do you have an extreme view about everything? You have dismissed one side as more or less all bad (savages) and one as more or less all good. All the blame for all the deaths is apportioned to the Palestinians. Any historic rights or wrongs are dismissed as 'lost through time'. Israel brought only 'reason and technology' into their lives. I believe that your view and solution is a minority view even in Israel.
Surely the reality is that the the situation is so complex and nuanced that a solution is near impossible. Can you think of any other world issue with so many differing opinions?

[Deadlegs]

To me this is what Lissa Juicy was against in regard to morality - arbitrary rules. Tolerance and acceptance depend on ones code of values. Should we tolerate all actions in the name of tolerance and acceptance or is it right to draw the line? Of course what people really mean by tolerance is 'my way or the high way.'

Highly intolerant in my view!

Only if the rules are arbitrary. There must be a common set of human 'code of values'.