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Thread: Mountaincraft

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post


    Especially if that experience comes from beingstranded slowly freezing to death because you've broken an ankle orcragfast with no warm layers or emergency kit to see you through to anyhope of rescue.
    That scenario shows a distinct lack of common sense never mind moutaincraft IMO.
    The older I get the Faster I was

  2. #22
    Senior Member stumpy's Avatar
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    It does, but yet it still happens! I can guarantee that there are many of us on this forum that will have avoided this scenario only by luck rather than mountaincraft though. Take the wrong line in an AL, with the minimum kit requirements and it could be any of us. The point I'm trying to make is that, to make the right decisions, we should be the sum total of ours AND other's experiences. If we all had to learn from only our own mistakes then most of us wouldn't make it!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    It does, but yet it still happens! I can guarantee that there are many of us on this forum that will have avoided this scenario only by luck rather than mountaincraft though. Take the wrong line in an AL, with the minimum kit requirements and it could be any of us. The point I'm trying to make is that, to make the right decisions, we should be the sum total of ours AND other's experiences. If we all had to learn from only our own mistakes then most of us wouldn't make it!
    Then the question has to be, should a person that is likely to do that aware of there limitations and environment, indeed should they even be running an A/L hoping that other folks experience will carry them safely through.

    TBH if somebody gets out of a sticky situation it is more likely to be through the application of some skills and mountaincraft, rather than luck

    We don`t only learn from mistakes, we learn vastly more from practical experience which in turn helps us to avoid mistakes.

    As has already been said there are no shortcuts, experience has to be earned by the individual after all there are times when a more experienced person may not be around to help out.

    Yes I am aware of the unfortunate accidents to experienced hill goers and some of the circumstances surrounding them and hopefully I have learned from there mis-fortune, hence the reason I generally carry a small sos beacon which hopefully I will never have to find out it`s value, and depending on forecasts and terrain I seldom carry just minimum kit, after all I am still only learning
    Last edited by JohnK; 30-01-2016 at 11:14 PM.
    The older I get the Faster I was

  4. #24
    Senior Member stumpy's Avatar
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    John - your last paragraph is exactly the point I'm making!

  5. #25
    Master Stolly's Avatar
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    Stumpy say hello to the Chilterns for me - when I lived down there (born in High Wycombe) and last resided in Quainton near Aylesbury I used to love running in Wendover Woods and on the escarpment above Chequers.

    I'm sort of with Johnk in that all the worthwhile lessons on running in the hills are learnt the hard way. Living in the Dales right beside Pen y Ghent means that I'm running in the hills all the time and in all weather and for sure I've plonked myself in a fair few sticky situations. I don't think reading about other peoples troubles adds a single bit to actually dealing with problems though. But being out running on top of a hill in a blizzard and white out sure reminds you to take a compass

  6. #26
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
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    Yeap, sometimes its just down to your own hard gained personal experience.

    For example, you'll never read in any book, that when running along a trail and you encounter a beck that you judge is just on, or a smidgen over, the edge of your leaping ability, there always, always, appears to be a much more feasible crossing places, a way upstream. But once reached, after all your wasted time and effort, never fulfills it's initial promise - grrrrh. And after a succession of false promises, you end up either retreating back to where you started, or plunging across anyway in a foul mood And don't get me started on false summits.....
    Am Yisrael Chai

  7. #27
    Senior Member stumpy's Avatar
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    Will do Stolly! I was on Beacon Hill above Chequers last week!

    I agree, there is no substitute for hard-earned experience - provided you do actually learn from it (and you survive it!). And Mossdog - I also agree with the stream crossing analogy, but expanding it - if you cross a deep stream in spate with your rucksack on, waist belt done up straps on tght and you fall in you may well drown. However, if you do the same thing, having read in Eric Langmuirs book, or been told on a course somewhere to have your rucksack straps undone, so you can shed the rucksack and stop it dragging you under, then you may well survive to put experience and knowledge together!

    Saying you can't learn ANYTHING from others is just plain mad! It's not either or, but a combination of both. If not, then Eric Langmuir's book, Ian DP's article, and even the FRA nav courses are all just a waste of time and everything we ever know can only coming from experiencing it ourselves! Right, I wonder what shape would be best for a wheel then???

  8. #28
    Master Stolly's Avatar
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    Haha I was out with Ian DP on a really tough run on Howden Edge and the back of Bleaklow a few years ago in a big snow storm and I suspect much of Ian's advice on hypothermia was helped if just just a little by that experience. I had frost nip in my toes for 3 months after that one!

  9. #29
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    ... It's not either or, but a combination of both. .......
    Definitely agree with that. Its not either/or, but its' both/and when it comes to one's own experience and that of others (whether gleaned from books or scary, near-miss anecdotes)
    Am Yisrael Chai

  10. #30
    Grandmaster IanDarkpeak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post

    Especially if that experience comes from beingstranded slowly freezing to death because you've broken an ankle orcragfast with no warm layers or emergency kit to see you through to anyhope of rescue.
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
    That scenario shows a distinct lack of common sense never mind moutaincraft IMO.
    I realise that the above is "hypothetical" scenario. it could happen but for me it usually follows a chain of disaster, quite a few MR call outs and near misses are not one bad decision but a series of them.

    Lets take some thing we know as an example.

    Big hill race AL 25 Miles 3500ft Exp required,
    It certainly requires good mountain craft, with bad weather forecast, a long time in the hills, tricky navigation.

    Decision 1 in the valley before setting out...Choice I'll get a way with LW waterproof, single thermal and a vest, hat and gloves. I'll be moving fast so will be warm enough. the RO is asking runners to carry a bivvy but they aren't doing a kit check so I won't bother, I'll take 8 jelly babies and gel for an emergency.

    Decision 2 at 10 miles you turn in to the wind and it starts to snow, it's getting chilly but I'm racing and don't feel too cold, I'll push on. if I get colder Ill put my gloves on.

    Decision 3 (possible place to drop off and retire) you notice one of your shoes has started to split, You decide you'll be all right, you've wrapped a bit of lace around the boot to hold it together...

    Decision 4 heading into a strong wind and clag, Time to get the compass out, you then realise that when you messed about with your laces your hands got really cold and you haven't warmed up since..you really struggle to get the compass out because the zip puller broke off your bum bag last week and you haven't sorted it.

    Luckily you had put your thin gloves in a pocket so you struggle to get them on, you also realise your getting tired but you've eaten your jelly babies over an hour a go..hands are so cold you can't use them properly so you can't open your bum bag to get the gel out.

    Decision 5 Another possible bail out point, the last safe one, only 5 miles to the finish, one small climb in 2 miles then flat, the last two down hill, barely 30 minutes running.you are feeling rough but 5 miles! you push on.

    Decision 6 just starting down the last climb your lace snaps and the boot splits, you have to slow down because you cant run, you didn't put a spare thermal in and the kit you have on is wet due to sweat, you start to shiver violently, there's no one around so irrationally you decide the time has come to get off the hill by the quickest route. instead of heading down the ridge you head off at 90 degrees and suddenly you are on a steep boulder field, you're feeling a bit dizzy and slip and there is a terrible sound from you ankle...

    Now what did stumpy say....

    May be a bit far fetched, but who amongst us can say we've never made choices like those above, but in the chain of disaster we could have made a different choice at any point resulting in us being at the finish and enjoying some banter about why we retired?

    For me that is mountain craft, the ability to realise when to turn back and when you can push a bit harder.

    The older I get the easier some of these choices become...

    Stolly mentions a run we did on Howden when a freak snow storm came in and we had drifts chest deep. It was a real epic adventure and I reckon the nearest I've come to having some one getting in to serious trouble.
    We could have broken the chain at any point and bailed "but" we had a car at snake summit so pushed on....
    Last edited by IanDarkpeak; 02-02-2016 at 12:19 AM.

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