Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 104

Thread: Clubs and Disciplinary Matters

  1. #1

    Clubs and Disciplinary Matters

    When a potential incident is being considered under the disciplinary process (FRA Rules for Competition-Rule 11) the club of the athlete is informed of developments. If a club shares the credit for a runner’s success a club cannot disassociate itself when its runners breach FRA Rules.

    This approach also applies to junior runners and it could be argued that junior runners generally have a closer relationship with their club, particularly with a club coach, than do senior runners.

    Recently the FRA Committee has become increasingly concerned (as has been reported in The Fellrunner) about the issue of “underage runners” and breaches of the distance limits for junior runners (FRA Rules for Competition- Rule 10). It has been alleged that some clubs have colluded in breaches, either deliberately or by failing to follow the proper race entry process.

    The rules which apply to junior fell running are, for good reasons, not necessarily the same as for other disciplines (XC/ Track/Road) but they are clear.

    Age on 1st January in the year of competition (i.e.not age on race date) is a critical factor.


    Race Organisers, in order to register and insure their races with the FRA, agree to comply with FRA Rules. As do competitors or, in the case of juniors, the Parent/Legal Guardian.

    If a Race Organiser does not have a race entry system that includes DOB for junior runners the organiser will be unable to ensure compliance with Rule 10 particularly if, for example, a parent or coach or club encourages a runner to compete in a race beyond the allowed distance.

    From 2012 therefore if a runner is under 18 the Junior Race Entry Form should be used (FRA Safety Requirements for Fell Races-Rule 8) for both senior and junior races and this entry form requires the completion of both Date of Birth and Age on 1st January in current year by the Parent or Legal Guardian.

    Completion of this data will provide some protection from jeopardy for Race Organisers and also prevent the misunderstandings over junior race eligibility which have arisen in the past.

    Clubs should take note that breaches of FRA Rules are also breaches of UKA Rules and therefore UKA is informed of disciplinary outcomes, including the name of the Club of the athlete involved.

    Graham Breeze (FRA Chairman)
    11th January 2012
    Last edited by Graham Breeze; 11-01-2012 at 11:04 PM.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  2. #2
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    7,007

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    That being the case Graham, there is a lot of misleading information out there on the FRA website and published on the calendar.

    Just look at the races that are there for seniors and they declare "Minimum Age: 16" when by what you say, it should say "Minimum Age 16 as at 1/1/12 when applied to the 2012 calendar.

    Many races under UKA or FRA Rules adopt this terminology leading many athletes and parents to the understanding that age on the day has relevance to the race entry as it does for the VET categories and that the 1/1/12 calculation applies to championships that run through a particular competition year.

    Just to underline the confusion, at the World Trials at Witton last year, U16s were allowed to enter the U20 Trial despite the fact that it was over distance as some of those U16s met the WMRA age rules for the World U20s age group.
    Yet it was run under FRA Rules.

    So I suggest it needs a bit more thoroughness than just the entry forms which based on what you say will also be incorrect.
    From 2012 therefore if a runner is under 18 the Junior Race Entry Form should be used
    Someone could be 18, but an U18 at the same time.

  3. #3

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Rule 10: first sentence indicates that the distance limits (ie the Rule) override what a race organiser might suggest for his race for anyone under 18 on 1.1.2012.

    Once you become 18 on the day you literally cease to be a junior and Rule 10 does not apply.

    However if you were competing in the "Under 18 and Over 16" Junior Champs because the key date is 1.1.2012 you would still be eligible to be counted as "Under 18" Category for the rest of the 2012 year.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  4. #4
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    7,007

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    Rule 10: first sentence indicates that the distance limits (ie the Rule) override what a race organiser might suggest for his race for anyone under 18 on 1.1.2012.

    Once you become 18 on the day you literally cease to be a junior and Rule 10 does not apply.

    However if you were competing in the "Under 18 and Over 16" Junior Champs because the key date is 1.1.2012 you would still be eligible to be counted as "Under 18" Category for the rest of the 2012 year.
    Can you guide me to the part of the rules where an 18 year old ceases to be a junior and it becomes "age on day"?

    RULE TEN
    Race organisers must stipulate age limits for their events but the following maximum distance limits for
    juniors must be observed.
    Ages are as at 1st January in the year of competition.


    My interpretation of this is that the RO has to take the max race distances in to account when stipulating minimum age - so then when the RO puts "Minimum Age 16" and that is how the calendar words it, it can actually be contradictory to the rules.

    Let's take Bleasdale Circle - calendar entry is Minimum Age 16, when it should actually say "Minimum Age Group U18s".

    You could be 16 between 1/1/12 and the race day at end of Feb, therefore meet the criteria published in the Calendar and yet not be eligible if you check the actual rules.

    Flagrant breaches are one thing, but when the sport gives out such mixed messages, it should sort out those mixed messages before it expects everyone to be able to interpret them in the way that the sport wants.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Eleanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ambleside
    Posts
    394

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Okay I thought I got it, now I'm confused.

    If a Junior runner enters an FRA event during 2012, then they must enter the age category based on their age on 1/1/2012. Is that true?

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    192

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleanor View Post
    If a Junior runner enters an FRA event during 2012, then they must enter the age category based on their age on 1/1/2012. Is that true?
    That's the usual situation. Rule 10 sets maximum distance limits for different ages of runners eg Under 14s (ie those aged 12 and 13 on Jan. 1st in the current year) must not run in races longer than 5km.

    However the "Rules for Competition" do not actually state the age groupings as such that an individual race organiser must use for his junior races. Whatever the groupings, the organiser will not break the Rules as long as the race distances are set such that the youngest runner in any race does not exceed the maximum distance allowed (as defined by the runner's age on Jan. 1st).

  7. #7
    Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    A galaxy near chewie (Longdendale)
    Posts
    1,051

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleanor View Post
    Okay I thought I got it, now I'm confused.

    If a Junior runner enters an FRA event during 2012, then they must enter the age category based on their age on 1/1/2012. Is that true?
    Here, here. Me too, I thought I had it, simples, like you say. As a simple muppet relatively new to FRA rules, and certainly to the Junior scene in 2011, that is exactly how I have read it, Eleanor, till reading this thread. So, (said tentatively, not wanting to be confused); my daughter who turns 8 in Feb-2012 and ran in one or two U8 FRA events in 2011, will still be eligible for U8 races in 2012 (as she was 7 on 1st Jan 2012), and she (nay I!) must be careful - later at any time in 2012 when she turns 8 - not to try and enter her in a race distance judged to be too long for someone who is classed as an U8 (such as a U10 race which is >1km and< 2km), since she was not 8 or over on 1-1-12. But, this is the confusing bit, having read the last few posts; if a particular 'advertised minimum age 8' race has a distance of <1 km, then, when she is 8 after Feb, would she (or would she not?) be OK to run that particular 'advertised' race, along with U10s, given that the distance itself didn't break the U8 distance rule? Is this the subtlety WP is getting at, or am I just getting more confued?
    PS - I understand the U18/18 'overlap' - as you stop being a junior when you get to 18 birthday.
    PPS - and the over 6 rule - you have to be over 6 on the day of the race. That still applies doesn't it, as my youngest just turned 6 in Oct (and only became eligible for U8 on 01-01-12). So my 6 year old and 7 nearly 8 year old can / should both run U8 in 2012.
    PPPS - but of course the new forms will trap all this, (stop any confusion) will they?!?
    Last edited by OB1; 12-01-2012 at 09:24 PM. Reason: PS + PPS + PPPS

  8. #8
    Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    A galaxy near chewie (Longdendale)
    Posts
    1,051

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Thanks FJ - Simples, like Eleanor and I both thought. A nice simple user-friendly calculator with easy to follow input / output too.
    Two simple rules to follow, with a little quirky overlap for when you turn a big-un at 18.
    So, we just need us all (competitors, guardians, ROs, etc) to follow the 2 rules, in 'race-ads / design' as well as 'race-entry'. What could be simpler?
    Last edited by OB1; 12-01-2012 at 09:56 PM.

  9. #9
    Master Bo Peep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hillbilly Land
    Posts
    1,613

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    [quote]The rules which apply to junior fell running are, for good reasons, not necessarily the same as for other disciplines (XC/ Track/Road) but they are clear.[Quote]

    "For good reasons." What good reasons are those, Graham? The danger in fell running according to Richard Askwith is in the blood and sheer slices of mountain danger, an idea that you, I suspect as much as I, don't buy in to.

    By "good reasons" I assume you mean that the insurance premiums go up?

    I feel our sport will lack credibility as juniors are excluded from participating in events they could do well in.

    I accept, however the insurance company will win every time. Which I think is the real point here?

    Chris Smale
    Last edited by Bo Peep; 12-01-2012 at 10:05 PM.
    Little Bo-Peep has lost her sheep

  10. #10
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    7,007

    Re: Clubs and Disciplinary Mat

    Quote Originally Posted by FellJunior View Post
    The answers are:
    Your daughter must run no further than the U8 maximum distance in 2012 in FRA sanctioned races.
    Your youngest is eligible to run U8 (distance) races in 2012 and 2013. Minimum 6 on the day of the race is still in force.

    The forms are not new as such, but imposing their use hopefully will encourage the right questions to be asked at race registration, which hasn't always happened.
    The two eligibility questions are:
    1) Age on 1st January this year?
    2) Maximum distance for the age group defined by 1)?
    If you are still unsure try the age group calculator at www.felljunior.org.uk/FRAJunior on the 'Rules' tab.
    I think you'll find that's wrong FJ

    In 2013 she will be an U10 by my calculation.

Similar Threads

  1. Disciplinary Committee
    By Keswick_Krumble in forum General Fellrunning Issues
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 29-07-2011, 11:27 PM
  2. Most clubs?
    By Richard Head in forum General chat!
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-05-2009, 06:46 PM
  3. Clubs etc.
    By Babble in forum General Fellrunning Issues
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 13-12-2008, 04:40 PM
  4. Clubs in leeds
    By jonny in forum General Fellrunning Issues
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-09-2008, 02:42 PM
  5. Housing Act / Legal Matters
    By fellhell in forum General chat!
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 02-10-2007, 10:32 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •