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Thread: Keep it simple.

  1. #31
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    As with many things, BGR is in danger of being a victim of its own success. Options range from do nothing and accept the changes to a radical rethink of the criteria such as only accept solo unsupported attempts.....would this be practical?
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  2. #32
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    Or - even more radical - change a few of the peaks for alternatives. That would alter the route to avoid the badly erroded parts the ldnp are concerned about. Add in bakestall and little calva on leg 1, take out fairfield and st sandal on leg 2. Make ulscarf the first top on leg 3. A bit of tweaking around the rest of leg 3 and 4 to ensure distance and ascent remain roughly the same. I dont think this is the answer by the way, but it could be an option for a limited time to allow the ground to recover.

    The 42 we do now are not exactly the same as the 42 that Bob Graham did iirc.

    Or we accept that erosion is inevitable and it would then be down to the ldnp to take action.

  3. #33
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    How would that be enforced? Could it? There's comment and reasoning on the Club's website.

    Jackd - Rule 11 already allows for this. The problem then of course is what's "significant merit"? One option that would help with the erosion in the Back o' Skiddaw (but only that area) would be to only allow anti-clockwise rounds for a few years.

    As if to prove my point about people not reading even the simplest of instructions: a duplicate registration arrives
    Last edited by Bob; 20-08-2017 at 05:02 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derby Tup View Post
    "Is its time to start embracing technology, use of GPS traces to validate a completion ? Would this help ? The primary role of support runners is to validate visits to summit


    The primary role of support runners is safety (imho)
    Perhaps somebody should mention that to the 83 year old fella I met on the Kentmere horseshoe today does all the Wainwrights' annually SOLO,

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeze View Post
    As with many things, BGR is in danger of being a victim of its own success. Options range from do nothing and accept the changes to a radical rethink of the criteria such as only accept solo unsupported attempts.....would this be practical?
    I have long been of the opinion that solo attempts with GPS trace and or tracker support should be recognised, and given the reliability of the kit these days it could even be said that summit locations would be more accurate than that projected by a few mates in a hurry.
    OK I understand the safety issue but it is my opinion that any outdoors person worth there salt would happily take responsibility for there own safety, know there limitation and have the hill craft to get themselves from A-B and the common sense to carry spare batteries (+compass and printed route for backup) etc.
    TBH i.m.o. going solo would restore the challenge to a level closer to that Bob graham faced when he did it without the advantage of modern kit and an obvious track for most of the route.
    F.W.I.W. I have in the past supported a Bob Graham and I said at the time that the contender was perfectly capable of soloing it and would in fact have gained much more satisfaction had he done so.
    This is purely my opinion and I am not posting it to have a dig at the Bob graham club or those that have completed the challenge, but rather to add food for thought
    Last edited by JohnK; 20-08-2017 at 08:50 PM.
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  5. #35
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    What are recent annual attempt numbers like Bob? I thought they peaked a few years ago. Is there not a finite amount of folk willing / interested / capable of doing it

    John, I don't suppose the guy you met does a third of them in the dark?
    Poacher turned game-keeper

  6. #36
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    Andy - Previous years' numbers are on the club site on the news page, generally mid seventies successes out of slightly more than double than that in registrations. This year it's over 100 successes out of about 220 registrations. Dunno if this will be the new norm.

    johnk - sadly it's not just "outdoorsmen worth their salt" who express an interest in the round. We regularly have to explain that the round is not something to just stick on a bucket list without a significant apprenticeship in the hills. Encouraging those people to head out on the round solo with a GPS for company wouldn't be the wisest of moves.
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  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    .

    johnk - sadly it's not just "outdoorsmen worth their salt" who express an interest in the round. We regularly have to explain that the round is not something to just stick on a bucket list without a significant apprenticeship in the hills.

    This must be true. People are not all the same. (Not that I spent 20 years as a personnel manager you understand).

    Yes there are long days on the hills, self reliant, good at navigation people... and there must be, shall we say, average runners who can just about stay upright for 24 hours while a team of people wipe their nose etc.

    The former may respond to high flown debate about environment damage...the latter just want the badge.

    I always think running club peer pressure must play a part. If "everybody" else in your club has done a BGR and one is being repeatedly asked "when are you doing yours because we're all here to support you?" etc etc it cannot be easy to reject what your club mates take so much pride in and are so keen to help you with. And when they promise to make it as painless (if not painfree!) as possible - how can one resist?

    I suppose it's a bit like taking a mate's DVLA driving test for them to make sure they pass.

    And are then able to drive you home from the pub.
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  8. #38
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    Of course GPS "proof" is no such thing - it just means the device has done the round - a pair or a group could get together and share each other's "solo" rounds - though I doubt this would ever be done.

    Similarly there could be a group watch reset when somebody just fails to make the 24 hours - but too many would have to accept this to make it a serious problem.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    . This year it's over 100 successes out of about 220 registrations. Dunno if this will be the new norm.

    .
    So as many people did the Bob Graham this year as have ever done the Charlie Ramsay. Numbers for the Paddy Buckley not that much higher (especially if you only count the sub 24's). Yes, I know the BGR is the oldest established, most well-known etc, but even so the disparity is amazing.

  10. #40
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    Short of having permanent logging stations at every summit and then strapping the dibber to the contender (in the same way as happens at mountain marathons) there's no practical way to prove that the contender does visit every summit. Thus it does end up being a matter of trust.

    There have been occasions this year when GPS devices have failed, both to show that the contender visited a summit and that they completed the round due to the device freezing or malfunctioning in some way. It's not a common occurrence but it does happen. I think I'd be pretty annoyed if I relied on such a device for ratification only to find out after I'd finished that it hadn't recorded everything.

    Having (some) help does make it sociable. If it was a matter of "complete the round, get the certificate" then the dinner as a social occasion would be superfluous, it's probably the only time that members get to meet one another.

    gaj - it might be better comparing successes on the Ramsay with those on the Bob Graham (and Paddy Buckley) at a similar time in their history rather than the present. I seem to recall they weren't that dissimilar for the first twenty years or so (taking 1970 as the base for the BGR). The CRR is of course much more distant for most than the BGR which is within a couple of hours' drive for a large proportion of people. There's also a much smaller window of opportunity to attempt the CRR as there may be significant snow lying on the tops until well into May.
    Last edited by Bob; 21-08-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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