Brexit

[Witton Park]

Of course it's a free country WP. I was freely admitting my surprise that a well informed commentator would quote from such a dreadfully biased right wing rag. I would expressed similar surprise if someone quoted a source from the Daily Star. In my own view, it damages credibility. However, Oracle offered a good defence in saying it was Margaret Hodges son he was actually quoting. Fair enough.

Peter Hitchens is someone who writes for the Mail who I find interesting and provocative. I have to say I don't like him and I more often than not disagree with him but I do like reading and he is open to a debate online as well, which few are.

There is crap in all papers regardless of their political position. Journalist of the year, Carole Cadwaller, has had to print or tweet so many retractions for stuff run in the Guardian/Observer recently, you wonder how she is still employable.

[Stolly]

No time to answer all your points WP as I’m on my way to a work meeting but the 2nd referendum is needed because the first was so flawed. It put Brexit over as if it was a single thing when, if the past three years have taught us anything, it’s nothing like that. Brexit could be soft, medium or hard and all could effect our day to day standard of living in a myriad of ways. Already the country has spent something like £100 billion trying to get Brexit done and will have to spend a shit load more in the years ahead. Everybody makes out that we just need to get this deal done but this deal is only the end of the beginning of Brexit. It’s singularly the most stupid thing ever and the irony is that, even if it happens, the U.K. now has possibly the strongest and largest pro EU lobby in Europe; rejoining will be inevitable.

Also for such a major constitutional referendum as the original was, they clearly should have had a 60% or more threshold to avoid all the caffuffle that we’ve had since.

Oh and did I mention all of the lies in the original campaign....

[Muddy Retriever]

I don't believe that Boris is shit-scared of a 2nd referendum because of the potential result. I believe he is concerned at the damage to the system such a referendum would have.
Firstly, what question?
You can see the Remainers are for a two option BRINO or Remain. Labour's as you know is for the softest of soft Brexits and Remain.
The intent to airbrush leave out of a 2nd referendum is quite sinister in my opinion.

You only need to look across at France and Spain to see the effects of political chicanery.
The Brits are rather more reserved it has to be said, but if you keep poking with that stick....

and then we have the recurring issue of what happens if Remain win a 2nd referendum 52/48 assuming Remain gets back on such a referendum?
Best of 3?
What type of Remain?
3 years of debate to see how we create a remain arrangement with the EU that respects the views of the 48?
After 3 years do we put the Remain "deal" to the electorate in a confirmatory referendum?
Would that 3rd confirmatory referendum have the options of "Remain Light" or No Deal?

and round and round we go.....

Good points. I would add another. There is no guarantee that if Leave won again our Remain parliament would accept the result even then. In fact both Jo Swinson and Caroline Lucas have admitted that they wouldn't.

[Muddy Retriever]

Oh and did I mention all of the lies in the original campaign....

Yes, the claim that just by voting to leave unemployment would increase by 500,000 to 800,000 was truly shocking and subsequently proven to be completely wrong.

[Witton Park]

No time to answer all your points WP as I’m on my way to a work meeting but the 2nd referendum is needed because the first was so flawed. It put Brexit over as if it was a single thing when, if the past three years have taught us anything, it’s nothing like that. Brexit could be soft, medium or hard and all could effect our day to day standard of living in a myriad of ways. Already the country has spent something like £100 billion trying to get Brexit done and will have to spend a shit load more in the years ahead. Everybody makes out that we just need to get this deal done but this deal is only the end of the beginning of Brexit. It’s singularly the most stupid thing ever and the irony is that, even if it happens, the U.K. now has possibly the strongest and largest pro EU lobby in Europe; rejoining will be inevitable.

Also for such a major constitutional referendum as the original was, they clearly should have had a 60% or more threshold to avoid all the caffuffle that we’ve had since.

Oh and did I mention all of the lies in the original campaign....

Yes you've more or less covered this on multiple occasions and I disagree with you. So I'll leave it with back in the 70s the electorate were given a simple in/out and at that time we didn't consider the concept of a hard, soft, medium, clean..... membership.

[Wheeze]

I completely agree with the assertion that a sensible majority like 60/40 should have been agreed up front. Kerfuffle-saving it would have been. I also agree with WP that the referendum question was correct. Binary Leave/Remain. Of course issues resulting from the decision would have had to be dealt with. Thats what politicians are for. We choose, they do. Or not in this case!!

[Oracle]

Of course it's a free country WP. I was freely admitting my surprise that a well informed commentator would quote from such a dreadfully biased right wing rag. I would expressed similar surprise if someone quoted a source from the Daily Star. In my own view, it damages credibility. However, Oracle offered a good defence in saying it was Margaret Hodges son he was actually quoting. Fair enough.

No actually Wheeze, keep up!
He is ( ex lab mp - ex actor) Glenda Jackson’s son.

[Oracle]

You are speaking like one of our lifelong state sponger mps

Reality is starting a new enterprise, kicking in the day job, investing a fortune is not normally amenable to simple economic assessment, it is done on the basis of belief backed by evidence, not on immediate short term but what it might become.

Using your short termist thinking that cannot see past the present, there would be no private sector or public funding at all.

So it is far more pertinent that Singapore, Canada, Australia are doing better than EU , and that EU is a titanic on a path to financial self destruction than it is a myopic short term fear of loss on leaving the present arrangement.

It is laughable quoting “ expert” economists when almost all including imf, boe, ECB missed 2008 coming, and all the uk professors told us failing to join the euro was death. The economists I follow were spot on with both. They say the euro will collapse taking EU with it.

Also it is vital to assess the criteria which are the catalyst that makes that future possible ( ie own trade deals, so no customs union)

So speaks a guy who has been involved in setting up businesses exporting round the world, even to China, in fields such as robotics, imaging and biotechnology, Companies that refuse to take leaps of faith into the future die.

You cannot see past the end of your nose stolly.

No time to answer all your points WP as I’m on my way to a work meeting but the 2nd referendum is needed because the first was so flawed. It put Brexit over as if it was a single thing when, if the past three years have taught us anything, it’s nothing like that. Brexit could be soft, medium or hard and all could effect our day to day standard of living in a myriad of ways. Already the country has spent something like £100 billion trying to get Brexit done and will have to spend a shit load more in the years ahead. Everybody makes out that we just need to get this deal done but this deal is only the end of the beginning of Brexit. It’s singularly the most stupid thing ever and the irony is that, even if it happens, the U.K. now has possibly the strongest and largest pro EU lobby in Europe; rejoining will be inevitable.

Also for such a major constitutional referendum as the original was, they clearly should have had a 60% or more threshold to avoid all the caffuffle that we’ve had since.

Oh and did I mention all of the lies in the original campaign....

[Stolly]

Well I sure don’t want to be another Singapore - effectively a family run autocracy - and in any event Singapore are a member of a south East Asian trade block aren’t they? As for Australia a huge part of its success depends on having lots of minerals that expanding economies around the world need (at the minute). Australia are also having ever increasing dealings with the south east Asia trade block and also depend massively on the continued expansion of China and other countries in that neck of the woods. And Canada exports 75% of everything it exports to the USA, its biggest (obviously by far) and guess what nearest trading partner 🤔

[Oracle]

Use logic stolly.

You manage to disprove your own point.

Canada is not in the US but manages to export to it, we don’t need to be in the EU to export to that either.
Eu laments it’s inability under WTO to keep Chinese goods out!

Our balance of trade and balance of growth show the tide turning towards rest of the world. Eu is declining.

We are not in the US either, but manage to export more financial services there than EU

I’ve exported all round the world. EU made it harder not easier because externally it is a protection zone, not a free trade area.

Well I sure don’t want to be another Singapore - effectively a family run autocracy - and in any event Singapore are a member of a south East Asian trade block aren’t they? As for Australia a huge part of its success depends on having lots of minerals that expanding economies around the world need (at the minute). Australia are also having ever increasing dealings with the south east Asia trade block and also depend massively on the continued expansion of China and other countries in that neck of the woods. And Canada exports 75% of everything it exports to the USA, its biggest (obviously by far) and guess what nearest trading partner ��