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Thread: Brexit

  1. #881
    Master Stagger's Avatar
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    Our government and opposition are not working for the public.

  2. #882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stagger View Post
    Our government and opposition are not working for the public.
    Tusk and weyand talking 1-2 year extension , possible allowing of trade talks, for technological border to be developed. I am guessing the price will be extortionate. I think after euro elections EU will become increasingly ungovernable, financial collapses will start and increasing civil unrest. Our MPs always believed they knew better.
    Last edited by Oracle; 15-03-2019 at 12:00 AM.

  3. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by noel View Post
    I agree. Normally this amount of turmoil within a ruling party would mean the opposition would be 15 points ahead in the polls. Whereas actually they're 10 points behind. Not many people singing "Oh Jeremy Corbin" now. Maybe they need to change the emphasis to one of disappointment.

    TBH I'm disappointed by both main parties at the moment (more so than usual). What's a suitable analogy? Cats fighting in a bag? It seems clear to me that the left of the right and right of the left could quite easily agree on the principles of a brexit deal, but they still regard each other as the enemy.
    I said at the last General Election that it was like trying to pick the least bad shit-show out of a bunch of shit-shows.

    In my opinion the last decent Labour leader was John Smith and I wasn't alive when they had a good one before him.

    The last decent Conservative leader was Margaret Thatcher and I wasn't alive when they had a good one before her.

    In almost 54 years that's a pretty sad state of affairs.

    It's not just the two main parties either. The ever virtuous Liberals/LibDems have had Thorpe, good old David Steele, Paddy Pantsdown….. and Clegg who sold out on a main pledge to get a cabinet position.

    One of my hopes of Brexit was to have a clean out here in the UK and I think that is what will happen as a result of this mess.

    In the Tories, the only people keeping May in position are the ones that know they are toast if she goes. Self-preservation and ministerial cars and trimmings ahead of national and party interest.
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  4. #884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    In the Tories, the only people keeping May in position are the ones that know they are toast if she goes.
    Not necessarily: There are good times and bad times to oust a leader and I suspect many viewed it as poisoned chalice at present so are biding their time. And whichever way: exit, her deal, or long delay. She may stand down in the summer leading to conference. Who would blame her? All behaving like a bunch of big kids.

  5. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Not necessarily: There are good times and bad times to oust a leader and I suspect many viewed it as poisoned chalice at present so are biding their time. And whichever way: exit, her deal, or long delay. She may stand down in the summer leading to conference. Who would blame her? All behaving like a bunch of big kids.
    Almost certainly.
    Soubry, Wollaston and Allen all voted confidence in her and in the Govt in the 2 votes and then resigned the party having helped prevent a leadership contest for a year which would have almost certainly led to a Leave leader.

    You can add to that all the others that trooped through the opposite lobby to May this week such as Gaulke, Rudd and a number of MPs.

    They all lacked confidence in her, but voted to keep her as she was better in their mind than the alternative.

    In a year's time if May is still there, they can do so again. They aren't just taking the piss out of the electorate, but their own members.
    Richard Taylor
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  6. #886
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    Suppose the Tories have a problem in that their own members are very unrepresentative of the type of people, that they need to woo to win an overall majority. The members would certainly put a hard-brexitieer in place, which would alienate a lot of remain leaning voters.

  7. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry View Post
    Suppose the Tories have a problem in that their own members are very unrepresentative of the type of people, that they need to woo to win an overall majority. The members would certainly put a hard-brexitieer in place, which would alienate a lot of remain leaning voters.
    Why do you think the Tories are ahead in the polls? It puzzles me as they are so lousy.

    The only reasons I can think are that the rest are so bad and clearly intent on overturning the referendum result, or watering down Brexit so much it is not Leaving.


    At least the public can see that a core of say 150 Tory MPs are interested in delivering on the referendum result + a further rump that until now have been tied in to the Govt.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  8. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry View Post
    Suppose the Tories have a problem in that their own members are very unrepresentative of the type of people, that they need to woo to win an overall majority. The members would certainly put a hard-brexitieer in place, which would alienate a lot of remain leaning voters.
    Those definitions are unnecessarily inflammatory.
    Hard brexiteer means someone with a sense of reality, and life experience, that means when EU will not negotiate or try to screw you ( as they have done for two years), you walk away until they see sense. None of the (falsely called) hard brexiteers actually want no deal. Johnston doesnt. Mogg doesnt. Davies doesnt. They want a comprehensive deal. Just one that allows us to deal elsewhere.

    But that is reality forced by EU intransigence.
    But "customs union" or norway is not brexit at all which is about jurisdiction and ability to do own deals. So They are just worse forms of remain, labelled by remainers falsely as Brexit .Indeed, the ERG are the only ones actually following manifestos! Hard brexieers will tell you that it is better to revoke A50 and keep the veto, than do a worse form of remain.

    Then you have complete loony land. Many of whom are called soft brexiteers who are soft in the head ie Those who vote not to no deal. ie sign blank cheque to EU , and THEY alone: not the reality people (you call hard brexiteers) are the reason we had no leverage so were offered a bad deal. In fact it is no deal at all. It is demand for money and imposition of annexation, and very little else. I prefer reality to the loony soft brexiteers, who either dont accept the referendum so are hoping to stay, or want to capitulate and sign the blank cheque. Grieve the worst but many others.
    Last edited by Oracle; 15-03-2019 at 09:21 PM.

  9. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    it is better to revoke A50 and keep the veto, than do a worse form of remain.
    Imagine the fun to be had, sending a load of anti-EU MEPs to Brussels and using our veto to block up the EU. That's quite likely what you would end up with eventually as a consequence of undermining the referendum result.

    Mind you, I'd rather just leave cleanly.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  10. #890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    Imagine the fun to be had, sending a load of anti-EU MEPs to Brussels and using our veto to block up the EU. That's quite likely what you would end up with eventually as a consequence of undermining the referendum result.

    Mind you, I'd rather just leave cleanly.
    We may yet get the chance: they are discussing 2 year extension. My view is if we get the extension we veto the budget until they discuss trade.

    The EU is still not admitting the problem is 100 percent of its own making, by deliberately refusing to talk about trade, so the deal is not a deal. It is a demand for money with menaces rightly refused. Had there been a proper trade agreement even in outline, NI would not have been such a problem.
    Last edited by Oracle; 16-03-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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