Brexit

[Graham Breeze]

Insults are of course cheap, and they say more about the insulter than the insulted party.

But tell me Graham. I am genuinely interested.

Within the confines of what the EU actually does and is responsible for ,

(therefore european holidays or the ability to buy bianchi bikes are off limits because access to them is not contingent on being in EU)

what is YOUR prime argument for remain?
Other than a warm cosy feeling of "belonging" to europe whatever that means.

It is easy to list the downsides, where is the upside?

Oh Oracle! Who are you by the way? Skulking and sniping behind a carapace of anonymity - do you even deserve a response?

My delight was purely with Muddy Retriever's grammatical observation and dry humour. Nothing to do with Brexit. Oh my dear!

Notwithstanding and to display my renowned largesse...

At the time of the referendum I favoured remain. I thought the many faults of the EU could be sorted by the UK being inside as a "big beast", along with other discontented countries. In a previous existence I held a pendulum view of organisational change: things generally go too far, but then are brought back,...etc. (It's a metaphor so do not overanalyse).

The other aspect, and I do not wish to reprise my previous comments, is that by leaving the UK was never, never, never going to achieve a "good deal" (in another previous existence I worked in industrial relations) - as we all now clearly see, oh so clearly. So better never to have left than finish where we are now.

Of course things may improve with the incoming EU regime but, to use another negotiation cliché: after you have stripped the other guy naked then offer him a loin cloth to preserve his dignity and he will weep in gratitude for your generosity.

So here we are. One UK begging bowl but many politicians squabbling over who can be tossed the EU crust, and all dominated by which course of action will win the next General Election.

And on your other favourite topic: even a Bianchi doesn't turn a carthorse into a stallion. Primoz Roglic came only 3rd in the Giro, although that may be down to his team (Jumbo-Visma) using Shimano groupsets, whereas I, of course, ride Campagnolo - as, I note, did the Giro winner.

[Witton Park]

Of course it is not perfect and leaving the EU is necessary to fix those very important issues you have higlighted.

You read things that aren't there Pat,

The productivity needs fixing and yes I believe the UK can do that better outside. As for the others, red herrings.

The point I was trying to make is that it's the very same people who trash the performance of the UK economy who claim the EU has been of huge benefit.

[DrPatrickBarry]

The point I was trying to make is that it's the very same people who trash the performance of the UK economy who claim the EU has been of huge benefit.

Genuine question, but who are you refering to?

[Oracle]

Oh Oracle! Who are you by the way? Skulking and sniping behind a carapace of anonymity - do you even deserve a response?

My delight was purely with Muddy Retriever's grammatical observation and dry humour. Nothing to do with Brexit. Oh my dear!

Notwithstanding and to display my renowned largesse...

At the time of the referendum I favoured remain. I thought the many faults of the EU could be sorted by the UK being inside as a "big beast", along with other discontented countries. In a previous existence I held a pendulum view of organisational change: things generally go too far, but then are brought back,...etc. (It's a metaphor so do not overanalyse).

The other aspect, and I do not wish to reprise my previous comments, is that by leaving the UK was never, never, never going to achieve a "good deal" (in another previous existence I worked in industrial relations) - as we all now clearly see, oh so clearly. So better never to have left than finish where we are now.

Of course things may improve with the incoming EU regime but, to use another negotiation cliché: after you have stripped the other guy naked then offer him a loin cloth to preserve his dignity and he will weep in gratitude for your generosity.

So here we are. One UK begging bowl but many politicians squabbling over who can be tossed the EU crust, and all dominated by which course of action will win the next General Election.

And on your other favourite topic: even a Bianchi doesn't turn a carthorse into a stallion. Primoz Roglic came only 3rd in the Giro, although that may be down to his team (Jumbo-Visma) using Shimano groupsets, whereas I, of course, ride Campagnolo - as, I note, did the Giro winner.

But there of course is the problem: you have no positive reason, just as Cameron and Osbourne could not identify a single one and were forced into negative selling of leaving, just as you did. Of course there could have been a win win deal. .

You , like Cameron and Osbourne just feared the vindictive nastiness of unelected ideologues who have presided over the expensive dysfunction that is the EU. That is a reason to leave not stay! As is the fact they refused to even do a minimum to help sway the vote in favour of stay. So there is no "improvement" or remain and reform possible. I have pointed at the stupidity with which EU now attempts to bully italy kicking away at their own foundations in the process. Eu always has let rules trump sense.

As for equlibrium and rebalance, it is simply not so. The construction of the euro favours positive feedback not negative. It is inherently unstable which is why all previous currency unions have failed. The rich get richer and the poorer get poorer and those with nothing have nothing to lose, which is why it is dangerous having 50 percent youth unemployment becoming angry young adults who will blame the EU. We really are at the limits of ECB and target2, and Italies debt is still increasing as it must. All it needs is bondholders to be spooked and the entire edifice will come crashing down. The banks of europe are in worse shape than they were before the last crash. Thats why deutsche bank shares have been sliding for years.


Meanwhile the growth rate of other substantial trading countries outshines that of the EU, precisely because EU is an inefficient protection zone. For that reason just being out is a good deal. 1 percent a year growth better than EU compounded, will do just nicely. It just takes vision, to see what we could become as singapore of the north.

It seems I will not win the Giro because of Shimano then. I knew there must be a reason other than athleticity. I am stuck, where (I believe) you were once, with the Boardman Carbon and Ultegra.

[Graham Breeze]

It seems I will not win the Giro because of Shimano then. I knew there must be a reason other than athleticity. I am stuck, where I think you were once, with the Boardman Carbon and Ultegra.

I still have both my Boardmans.

For when it rains.

[Oracle]

I still have both my Boardmans.

For when it rains.

I have swapped mine out for Ultegra wheels and Gatorskin tyres just for that added security! I finally yielded to fit a compact because of age and decrepitude,( and to get up the hill not far from Noels front door). But I digress....

[CL]

But there of course is the problem: you have no positive reason, just as Cameron and Osbourne could not identify a single one and were forced into negative selling of leaving, just as you did. Of course there could have been a win win deal. .

You , like Cameron and Osbourne just feared the vindictive nastiness of unelected ideologues who have presided over the expensive dysfunction that is the EU. That is a reason to leave not stay! As is the fact they refused to even do a minimum to help sway the vote in favour of stay. So there is no "improvement" or remain and reform possible. I have pointed at the stupidity with which EU now attempts to bully italy kicking away at their own foundations in the process. Eu always has let rules trump sense.

As for equlibrium and rebalance, it is simply not so. The construction of the euro favours positive feedback not negative. It is inherently unstable which is why all previous currency unions have failed. The rich get richer and the poorer get poorer and those with nothing have nothing to lose, which is why it is dangerous having 50 percent youth unemployment becoming angry young adults who will blame the EU. We really are at the limits of ECB and target2, and Italies debt is still increasing as it must. All it needs is bondholders to be spooked and the entire edifice will come crashing down. The banks of europe are in worse shape than they were before the last crash. Thats why deutsche bank shares have been sliding for years.


Meanwhile the growth rate of other substantial trading countries outshines that of the EU, precisely because EU is an inefficient protection zone. For that reason just being out is a good deal. 1 percent a year growth better than EU compounded, will do just nicely. It just takes vision, to see what we could become as singapore of the north.

It seems I will not win the Giro because of Shimano then. I knew there must be a reason other than athleticity. I am stuck, where (I believe) you were once, with the Boardman Carbon and Ultegra.

That is a good point. I think Graham B shares Michael Gove's view that the EU can be changed but they argue from different positions I.E. Remain and Leave. Gove was one of those Tories who thought if we just leave NOW then we can change the things we don't like over time. Big mistake! As Rees-Mogg and others have pointed out, trying to untangle yourself from the huge muddle of EU red tape is something that would be a nightmare. We'd be walking along and the EU would be constantly sticking it's foot out.

But coming back to Graham B for a moment. On the one hand he was telling us how principled the EU were for sticking to their guns, now he's telling us that we should have remained and changed it from the inside. I think the real issue for Graham B is he's worried about not being able to ride his Bianchi in Italy when we leave the EU.

[CL]

Oracle you've given us your views on why we should get out of the EU. What I'd like to know from you now is what you'd like to happen next vs what you expect to happen?

[Graham Breeze]

But coming back to Graham B for a moment. On the one hand he was telling us how principled the EU were for sticking to their guns, now he's telling us that we should have remained and changed it from the inside.

But surely CL that is exactly why God gave us two hands?

[Llani Boy]

But surely CL that is exactly why God gave us two hands?

Oh no! God is involved in the Brexit debate now.