Brexit

[Muddy Retriever]

This constant " the public just wants us to get on with it ...." - how do you know - have you asked them? Sure, the public is sick to death of it, but that might mean they want it stopped altogether rather than proceeded with.

You mentioned all the “lies” told Mike and that’s certainly true of the utterances of those who advocate a “people’s vote”. What could be undemocratic about asking the people to give their final say right?

Unfortunately both Jo Swinson and Caroline Lucas have rather given the game away. When both were asked whether they would accept a leave vote if another referendum was indeed held neither could. Says it all doesn’t it? Democracy is fine as long as the “plebs” vote the right way.

[Wheeze]

My opinion is that leaving is a step in the wrong direction, just as we were starting to feel like a European Community. Immigration is a clouded issue and quite frankly the multicultural society we live in is one of the things I am most proud of about living here. I totally agree amd immigration had nothing to do with why I cast my vote

I am utterly dismayed that all the EU social funding is going to go
EU social funding....where does it come from? The EU pot. Who pays into that pot? We do! and we only get part of it back. Social Funding will still need to be made but on our own priorities and without EU taking a cut to prop up weaker economies like Bulgaria.
I sincerely hope we don't regress all the progressive laws and regulations that have been brought in under the EU, 20-20-20, REACH, RoHS, Temporary Agency Workers Directive, Working Time Directive, GDPR, to name but a few... if our government reverts them that would be a tragedy and pretty much amount to crimes against humanity.
Agree in principle but not all of them have had intended consequences...WTD directive pretty much destroyed the Firm system in the NHS and with it, a key chain of medical responsibility. The imposition of these directives by unelected and therefore permanent Commissioners is a prime reason for me making my vote.

For sure the EC absolutely is not perfect, the laws and regulations are not perfect either, but at least as a member state we have a say and some influence over what happens. Being out and just having a trade deal like Norway for example, I can just see us not being able to do anything about it but comply anyway, I mean if you have to comply with RoHS to sell your electronic goods in the EU, then you will still have to comply even if we leave.Well yes, looking on the dark side. Witton Park makes some cogent bright side suggestions from a position of experience

Finally, what are the farmers going to do without the bailouts?I guess they will be supported by UK initiatives tailored to UK needs rather than a generalised handout that is more influenced by noisy neighbours like France

It seems so wrong on so many levels All depends on your viewpoint!

Having said that I am open minded and really keen to hear what will actually be good about it, got to make the best of things hey, I want something to look forward to instead of medicine shortages and food price increases, so... any practical examples like the ones I have given above but that are about why it will be good?
I'm sure there is a HUGE appetite for synthesisers in USA!!

Have made comments against yours above. I'm no expert in most things but I have seen the impact on medicine in he UK. Some of it is good, some is not good. Bit like the referendum vote...51/49!

[Muddy Retriever]

I am utterly dismayed that all the EU social funding is going to go, so much good work has been done under that banner

I presume that you realise that this is our own money given back? As an independent country we could if we wanted chose to spend this in exactly the same way and then still have another £10 billion to boot that we don’t have now.

And If you think EU spending is somehow superior why is it that their auditors have to qualify their report each year because of material misstatement?

[DangerMouse]

Thanks Wheeze, I will try and work my way back through this thread - that's going to take a while though!

Muddy Retriever, yes of course you're right; I guess it's a question of good faith, that is, will our government actually do that? I admit I am sceptical and think the money will go to projects like HS2 rather than where it is actually needed.

Rightly or wrongly, I always had a sense that the EU and EC objectives were fundamentally humanitarian and quite realistic. For example I worked on a four year project to help older people. I worked behind the scenes with academics and healthcare professionals, but was also in communication with the people doing the work on the front line. I know that we did an awful lot of good with the money, some 4 million Euro, throughout the EU and improved things dramatically in the countries that needed it so much more than we here in the 'richer' countries did. I don't know of any grants in the UK that offer that kind of money for that kind of work. Again, I am not an expert, I just know from talking to the people who did get the funding and helping them writing the bid (that was just my part of the work) that they did not know of anything else similar available anywhere. Maybe this will change and the UK government will start handing out similar sums of cash to Universities for projects like that, but I don't see / hear much evidence of this. I love working internationally, it's super tough, but it's really great and I am wondering if this will ever happen again in my lifetime now, maybe if I move into an EU country.

Happy to be proven wrong of course, that would be fantastic, I would actually love to be wrong. However, I suspect the money is all going to end up in the pockets of the corporations and be business oriented rather than socially oriented. The regular cycle of public taxation turned to corporate profit for minimal social good requirement.

Re. material misstatement, sure, as I said above nothing is perfect, it all still needs loads of work, and EU reports are, erm, onerous to say the least, the annual reports for the project I mentioned were sent in boxes! I guess I just hoped we could continue to do this work together rather than re-establishing borders, barriers and separatist ideals and throwing some of our hard work towards abolishing these ideas away.

I believe humanity is stronger if we all work together.

I'm not actually sure that everything we pay into the EU does come back to us, does it? Maybe that was what you meant? Anyway, I'm quite happy for some taxation to go and help other countries, much happier than I am to see it increase the bank balance of the corporate fat cats for sure. I'd like to see a thriving, capitalist, wider society, that is the EU and beyond, that celebrates it's industrial champions who in turn behave responsibly and hold genuine altruistic notions of welfare for the common good and in collaboration with government work tirelessly to make things better for everyone.

I am dreaming aren't I

Can I just say it's really refreshing to have some civil discourse about this - thanks everyone - despite the gloomy subject and everyone being sick to the back teeth of it, I feel like I have managed to say what I think without being judged or chastised in any way while still being questioned, challenged and informed.

Good stuff!

I hope my posts come across as cheerfully curious and open

I still don't know anything really...

[Wheeze]

Danger Mouse, as you sow, so shall you reap. You have voiced your concerns in a calm, measured and thoroughly thoughtful way. That is why you feel the way you do about the responses. If you have the fortitude to plough through the rest of this thread, you will see that it has not always been thus. Many toys have been cast out of the perambulator along the way!!
If you have the stomach for it and are not put off by the tone, Oracles postings contain clues as to why the European project is no longer the egalitarian collective that you would wish for. Warning...some of the posturing is offensive from protagonists on both sides of the debate!

[Mike T]

You mentioned all the “lies” told Mike and that’s certainly true of the utterances of those who advocate a “people’s vote”. What could be undemocratic about asking the people to give their final say right?

Unfortunately both Jo Swinson and Caroline Lucas have rather given the game away. When both were asked whether they would accept a leave vote if another referendum was indeed held neither could. Says it all doesn’t it? Democracy is fine as long as the “plebs” vote the right way.

Now that we know so much more, I would be willing to accept the result of a second referendum, even if it was "only" 48:52. The opposition parties have certainly done themselves no favours - they care more about themselves than the country. But that is politics, and, it would seem, the majority of politicians.

[Wheeze]

A you.gov poll showed that the majority of MP's believed they should represent their own wishes even it went against the majority of their own constituency. It is 'they know best'.

[Muddy Retriever]

Now that we know so much more, I would be willing to accept the result of a second referendum, even if it was "only" 48:52. The opposition parties have certainly done themselves no favours - they care more about themselves than the country. But that is politics, and, it would seem, the majority of politicians.

But the passage of time always means you know more now than you did in the past. It would have been the same had we voted to stay in the EU. I rather doubt that you'd now be asking for another referendum if Remain had won.

What do we actually know? For my part I know that the EU wants to punish us for having the temerity to leave by imposing harsh terms - Barnier has said as much. We also know that Remain politicians here have been encouraging them to do so and doing all they can to frustrate the referendum result. Neither of these is a reason to have another vote as far as I can see.

In reality we will only know if Brexit was the right decision after it actually happens. So why not give it chance and if in say five or so years there is a groundswell of opinion wanting a referendum to rejoin have one then?

[noel]

In reality we will only know if Brexit was the right decision after it actually happens. So why not give it chance and if in say five or so years there is a groundswell of opinion wanting a referendum to rejoin have one then?

Wise words MR. But we never have a counterfactual. If we leave, those who didn't want to will then blame everything from the trains running late to their football team not winning on that decision. If we don't the same will happen from the other side.

I'd also suggest that 5 years is too short a time. I think some of those who voted to leave were thinking more along the lines of "yes, it will be painful in the short term, but in the longer term it will have benefits". Maybe 15 years? It will take time for the economy, trade links etc. to adjust to the new market environment.

[Muddy Retriever]

Wise words MR. But we never have a counterfactual. If we leave, those who didn't want to will then blame everything from the trains running late to their football team not winning on that decision. If we don't the same will happen from the other side.

I'd also suggest that 5 years is too short a time. I think some of those who voted to leave were thinking more along the lines of "yes, it will be painful in the short term, but in the longer term it will have benefits". Maybe 15 years? It will take time for the economy, trade links etc. to adjust to the new market environment.

You're probably right that some people would never be reconciled to leaving (or remaining). That's why I mentioned that there should be a groundswell of general public opinion in favour of another referendum.

On reflection I agree that five years is probably too soon.