Page 2 of 187 FirstFirst 12341252102 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 1861

Thread: Brexit

  1. #11
    Master Wheeze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Monmouth
    Posts
    6,385
    You'd need strength to debate with Hezza!
    I am Kuno....

  2. #12
    Master Stagger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Its a secret!
    Posts
    9,534
    Nothing has changed yet in my life.
    What's all the fuss about?
    A quote,

    "The greatest accomplishment is not in never falling, but in rising again after you fall."

  3. #13
    Master Muddy Retriever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Muddy puddle at Temple Newsam
    Posts
    1,727
    Quote Originally Posted by luxinterior View Post
    So you folk who supported Brexit still think it was a good idea?
    I did and I still do.

    With the current government leading on it god knows where we will end up. The only clear thing is we will be worse off when we get through all this mess!
    Clear to you maybe, not me. Prior to to referendum, there were predictions from the Treasury and other bodies that there would be an immediate collapse of the economy if we voted to leave, such would be the shock. 500,000 jobs would be lost and there would be a deep recession. How did that forecast work out? The economy has continued to grow steadily and unemployment is at its lowest level since 1975. So forgive me if I am sceptical of Project Fear 2.0.

    I am however unhappy with the Government with different cabinet ministers taking different stances. That can hardly help our negotiating position.
    Last edited by Muddy Retriever; 17-11-2017 at 12:09 PM.

  4. #14
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    6,779
    Quote Originally Posted by CL View Post
    I wasn't going to come on this Brexit thread too many Remoaner lefties whinging about spilt milk. But then I couldn't let this con pass me by. Wheeze lets gets Brexit done THEN we'll adopt your 60:40 vote, what do ya say? Of course the 60% rather than the 40% has to be for change for change to occur.

    Give me strength!
    I'm with CL here.

    We didn't have a 60:40 for joining the EEC Common Market, Scottish Devolution, Scottish Independence, Welsh Devolution.

    The problem is if you have a 60:40, we would have had chaos had the result been 59:41.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  5. #15
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    6,779
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeze View Post
    The best thing I have heard on this whole issue was a phone interview with Michael Heseltine conducted by Steve Nolan on 5 live late one Sunday.
    Nolan was doing his best to unpick Hezza's postion as a confirmed remainer along the lines of 'the people have spoken, why are you, as a politician of the party in charge of brexit, trying so hard to overturn the peoples choice?'. The answer was simple and direct. He stated that it was always the job of a politician to overturn the peoples choice...that was the whole job of a political party in opposition....so why should this be any different?. A good answer I thought.

    The one thing that puzzles me is why was there not a precondition that a change would only be triggered by a sensible majority, say 60:40? As it is, a questionable majority of a few percent is always going to lead to rancour and discord.
    Aye, run it again but set a sensible majority.
    I have an issue here with Hezza.

    When we have a General Election, the political parties analyse the result. Those who have done well get the chance to implement their programme, sometimes in Coalition.
    Those that don't do well tend to lick their wounds, analyse where they went wrong, they usually blame the electorate for not understanding their message, and eventually come back with a refreshed offering.

    eg. When the Tories lost in 1997, they went through Hague, IDS and Howard before they ended up (unfortunately) with Dave.
    The offering by the Cameron led Tories in 2010 and 2015 was quite different from the previous incumbents.

    But with the Referendum result, Hezza, Farron, Clegg, etc are tryinhg to overturn it and undermine it before it has even been implimented.

    I don't remember those that opposed devolution immediately campaigning to block it or reverse it, or have another referendum, or ask what sort of devolution the electorate wanted as they couldn't all want the same thing.

    They just got on with it and set up the assemblies with powers devolved as agreed by the Commons.

    With Brexit they should just get on with it and then once out, I think parties have the freedom to take whatever position they want.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    With Brexit they should just get on with it
    They should.
    But they all want different things. This government has never expressed the details of what Brexit it wants.
    Under what conditions will they want to trade with the EU?
    Under what conditions will EU citizens be allowed to reside in Britain?
    What type of border is there going to be in Ireland?
    How much will Britain pay of its divorce bill?

    These are major questions the government has not answered, they can't even agree among themselves. Until they give the EU-27 an answer they accept, there is no going to be a next phase. We all lose, and the UK is the biggest loser.
    I'm not happy about it, and I'm not a UK citizen and I don't even live in the UK (not any more).

  7. #17
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    6,779
    Quote Originally Posted by Gambatte View Post
    They should.
    But they all want different things. This government has never expressed the details of what Brexit it wants.
    Under what conditions will they want to trade with the EU?
    Under what conditions will EU citizens be allowed to reside in Britain?
    What type of border is there going to be in Ireland?
    How much will Britain pay of its divorce bill?

    These are major questions the government has not answered, they can't even agree among themselves. Until they give the EU-27 an answer they accept, there is no going to be a next phase. We all lose, and the UK is the biggest loser.
    I'm not happy about it, and I'm not a UK citizen and I don't even live in the UK (not any more).
    I disagree, but first you can turn that on it's head.

    What conditions to the EU want to trade with the UK. I don't actually know anywhere whether they have said they want a comprehensive FTA.

    What conditions will UK citizens be allowed to reside in the EU?

    On the Northern Irish border, it is staggeringly obvious that this cannot be resolved until we have the outline of a trade agreement. The EU asks us for progress, but won't allow us to get to the trade element that will help resolve this part.


    How much does the EU expect us to pay? We've only had some spin, nothing set out.


    Now I work in various situations where we twin-track. The EU could drop us right in the crap if we agree a Figure now, talks move along, we agree a Citizens outline, talks move along, we discuss possible future involvement in projects such as Horizon, Erasmus.... and then we get to the end of next year and they change their mind and talks break down.

    So we should try to reach a deal, but we should be 100% planning for no deal. We should make sure we have the WTO schedules established, set up our regulatory agencies and get them up and running to deal with the issues of air travel, nuclear....

    So back to what the Government wants.

    You have to remember that unlike most issues, this issue was fought across party lines and not along party lines.
    So we end up with a Government that is made up of mostly Remain campaigners and the smae of the opposition benches.
    So the Tories under May, have had to go away and do much of the prep work that Cameron neglected to do.

    They presented the Lancaster House speech. That has been fleshed out with more detail since in two White Papers and the Florence Speech.
    (I have to say I'm not a fan of the way it's been done - but it is there)

    These have all carried a broad policy direction.

    1. They want to trade with the EU on a Free Trade basis and they want to develop an accelerated customs clearance system.
    2. They want EU Citizens to be able to reside here in the UK broadly as they do now. They have since put forward a simplified system of applying for residency.
    3. They do not want an active border with Ireland.
    4. They have said they will pay what is due. They have developed that to say they will not leave the EU short in this budget period, which in effect guarantees about 18-20 Billion on leaving.

    So I'm not sure what more they could be expected to say at this stage.

    I haven't yet seen anything on any of the issues from the EU and in particular, if the EU expects EU nationals in the UK to be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ after we leave, then they are being unreasonable.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    What conditions will UK citizens be allowed to reside in the EU?
    Don't forget is the UK that decided to leave, not the other way around.

    If I was the EU I would reply "I am happiest if UK citizens continue to enjoy freedome of movement, same as in recent years, and of course they must reciprocate". But I know the UK would not accept that, fair enough, then I would not even bother to offer it as an answer. Then dear UK just come up with a suggestion.

  9. #19
    Master Muddy Retriever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Muddy puddle at Temple Newsam
    Posts
    1,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Gambatte View Post
    How much will Britain pay of its divorce bill?
    The legal answer to this particular question would be nothing. There is no provision for a divorce bill in Article 50. A House of Lords committee having taken legal advice confirmed this. Fantasy figures have been concocted by the EU, worried that it is about to lose its second largest net contributor.

    The Government has already accepted that it will pay something in order to secure a free trade agreement with the EU but how it can it commit to a figure without knowing what the UK will get in return?

    It doesn't help that the Government is divided and cabinet ministers not singing from the same hymn sheet. It means that the EU doesn't believe that the British side will walk away from the negotiating table if the terms are unreasonable. They can therefore ratchet up their demands. The Government should be putting in place plans for a no-deal exit. It is not clear that they are doing that.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    How much does the EU expect us to pay? We've only had some spin, nothing set out.
    Not true.
    The bill is based on decisions to which the UK committed BEFORE the referendum.

    How about 28 friends at the pub order a pint each, and before being served one of them says "sorry guys, I'm going home without drinking". Should his mate pay his drink?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •