Brexit

[Witton Park]

I agree it's very strange. It does seem like official party policy, but I don't think Corbyn has yet actually endorsed it.

You could call it "constructive ambiguity", a "broad church" or a "complete shambles" - it's probably all three. If you look at the sorry state the conservative party has got itself into over Brexit, you could argue that Labour's approach is a pragmatic one. Why tear themselves apart too? They clearly can't reconcile so many opposing views.

I'm not sure the Tory party has got itself in to a state lately. I think Theresa May did that with her election call in 2017, her awful campaign, her awful manifesto which led to her loss of 17 MPs.

They had a small majority before then, but also had DUP support, so there really was little risk of the Lancaster House speech not getting through.

Her bad judgement gave the rebels such as Grieve, Allen, Wollaston and Soubry who had endorsed Brexit pre election, the power to influence and shape policy, aided and abetted by such as Hammond, Clark, Gauke, Liddington and Rudd in Cabinet.

Now the Tory party is probably more united and clear than it has been for 2 decades.

It just doesn't have the numbers in the Commons.

[noel]

Now the Tory party is probably more united and clear than it has been for 2 decades.

You're right. It's getting more towards a narrow church... with a smaller congregation, who either agree with Boris or aren't prepared to say otherwise. There are some mutterings about how many of each.

I wonder what the longer-term ramifications of this will be. Is this the Tories redefining themselves and moving further to the right of UK politics, or will this seem like a spat in hindsight post-Brexit? It's looking pretty incendiary at the moment. I'm a little younger than you, but I can't remember anything like this.

[Wheeze]

It was pretty rumbustious around the the time of Maastrict...here's a clip from he Guardian of the time.

John Major's rage and frustration with rightwing Tories boiled over this weekend when, in an outburst, he called three of his own cabinet members "bastards". The onslaught against the Eurosceptic ministers not named, but almost certainly Michael Howard, Peter Lilley and Michael Portillo came within minutes of the vote of confidence on Friday which kept him in office.
His obvious anger, and contempt for Tory opponents, is certain to keep open the party's wounds after the Maastricht furore. It will help convince rightwingers that Mr Major is even more embittered against them than he has admitted.

However its a storm in a teacup compared to now.
The early 70's were also very rough and tumble. Heath v Wilson. But as a teenager back then I had bigger issues to contend with!

[Muddy Retriever]

I agree it's very strange. It does seem like official party policy, but I don't think Corbyn has yet actually endorsed it.

You could call it "constructive ambiguity", a "broad church" or a "complete shambles" - it's probably all three. If you look at the sorry state the conservative party has got itself into over Brexit, you could argue that Labour's approach is a pragmatic one. Why tear themselves apart too? They clearly can't reconcile so many opposing views.

But it will make them look ridiculous in a general election campaign - which I will be very happy about. It came up on Question Time last night apparently when Emily Thornberry was completely flummoxed when asked the question.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/0...xit-confusion/

Here is an extract:

Presenter Fiona Bruce began proceedings by making a valiant attempt to outline what she understood was Labour’s current, official Brexit policy, before asking:

‘You would go back to Europe, try and get a better deal. Have a referendum, where Remain is an option.

Would you then be campaigning against your own deal to Remain?’

Remarkably, a flummoxed Thornberry couldn’t answer the simple question. But after a long pause, and bemused laughter from the audience, the shadow Foreign Secretary eventually managed a reply, telling the UK that:

‘Personally, I will campaign to Remain. I will negotiate to the best of my ability, a deal that will look after jobs and the economy, but the best way to look after jobs and the economy is for us to Remain.’

At which point her fellow contestant, the broadcaster Iain Dale, cut in to ask:

‘Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?’

[Muddy Retriever]

I wonder what the longer-term ramifications of this will be. Is this the Tories redefining themselves and moving further to the right of UK politics,

I think we may have discussed this topic before but I don't know what it is they are doing that is moving to the right of UK politics. If anything they look to be moving towards the centre, for example their increased public spending plans. Unless it is trying to implement the result of the referendum that is judged to be right wing.

[Witton Park]

I think we may have discussed this topic before but I don't know what it is they are doing that is moving to the right of UK politics. If anything they look to be moving towards the centre, for example their increased public spending plans. Unless it is trying to implement the result of the referendum that is judged to be right wing.

I'm not sure old left and right applies. But yes I agree. They are right perhaps in terms of Law and Order, but left in terms of spending.

[Witton Park]

One of several similar interviews with Labour front bench over recent weeks.

[anthonykay]

You're right. It's getting more towards a narrow church... with a smaller congregation, who either agree with Boris or aren't prepared to say otherwise. There are some mutterings about how many of each.

My MP, Nicky Morgan, is an interesting case. She used to be the target of some fairly nasty letters from Leavers in our local paper. Since accepting a cabinet post from Boris, she has been the target of severe criticism from Remainers. Either she has a cunning plan, or she is just an opportunist . . . .

[noel]

I think we may have discussed this topic before but I don't know what it is they are doing that is moving to the right of UK politics. If anything they look to be moving towards the centre, for example their increased public spending plans. Unless it is trying to implement the result of the referendum that is judged to be right wing.

Yes fair point. You can argue that Brexiteers are neither left nor right - they're just anti-EU. To my untrained eyes it seems that the left of the conservative party are more pro-EU and the right more anti-EU, meaning the recent purge pushes them further right. But I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

I'm not sure how it works with Labour - they have remainers and brexiteers too, but to me I can't see a similar rule-of-thumb correlation based on left and "lefter". Perhaps others can.

[DrPatrickBarry]

The principled position after the election of Johnson for these 21 would have been to resign the party and either stay independent or join another party, then call a by election.

I guess the above only applies to people you disagree with?