Brexit

[Muddy Retriever]

Again, this is down to opinion. The WA did (and still does) allow the UK to leave the EU, it's just that those MPs didn't agree with aspects of it. You could say they were at the time thwarting the will of the people by voting against it - although I realise this is a stretch as they wanted a more Brexit-y Brexit than was on offer as part of the WA.

But the point was why the case of the ERG rebels is different from the Remainer rebels.

My defence of the Tory MP's who voted against the WA is that it didn't honour the Conservative's manifesto pledge. This was firstly to leave the Single Market - the WA keeps us closely aligned with EU rules and maintains the supremacy of the ECJ in a number of areas. Secondly the pledge was to leave the Customs Union. As we all know, under the WA we cannot leave the Customs Union without the EU's permission because of the backstop. The deal was Brexit in name only.

I made the distinction with the more recent Tory rebels because they have voted explicitly against their party's manifesto pledges.

So that's why I think the rebellion of the latter is of a different magnitude to that of the former.

[TheGrump]

What percentage of those, who voted Remain in the referendum accept the democratic outcome, and are content to leave? Just a thought.

[Witton Park]

You are missing the point Noel, it is only people that he disagrees with that should resign.

Not at all. David Davis had to resign. Raab Had to resign. Johnson had to resign all under May. Steve Baker, Suella Braverman ditto.

[Witton Park]

But the point was why the case of the ERG rebels is different from the Remainer rebels.

My defence of the Tory MP's who voted against the WA is that it didn't honour the Conservative's manifesto pledge. This was firstly to leave the Single Market - the WA keeps us closely aligned with EU rules and maintains the supremacy of the ECJ in a number of areas. Secondly the pledge was to leave the Customs Union. As we all know, under the WA we cannot leave the Customs Union without the EU's permission because of the backstop. The deal was Brexit in name only.

I made the distinction with the more recent Tory rebels because they have voted explicitly against their party's manifesto pledges.

So that's why I think the rebellion of the latter is of a different magnitude to that of the former.

I agree but would go further.

You see the party got behind the 2017 manifesto and May's set piece speeches at Lancaster House and Florence.

Much is discussed of May's red lines, but she didn't really have any. As far back as Dec 2017 it was said that her red lines needed a new coat of paint as they were looking a bit pink.

It was May that moved away from her own commitments on the Single Market by offering very close alignment and then came up with the facilitated customs arrangement at Chequers.

It was May who came up with a 2 year transition, extendable to 4 years, and then the backstop which we couldn't leave without EU permission.

These were all new, and not party or manifesto commitments.

It was up to May if she withdrew the whip, but we did have numerous ministerial resignations over these creeping move from what most would call a clean Brexit, to a half-in Brexit.

Varoufakis on Question Time described it as an agreement only a country defeated in war would consider.

It polled at one point as only 12% approval by the public and of those supporting it in the Commons, most were on the Government's vast payroll.

More should have resigned, particularly Fox, Leadsom and Mordaunt. However, they will claim it was a deal that was a compromise and they were reluctantly willing to accept.

What is different now is that:

1. The Tory leadership contest gave a clear direction for the party. The lead 4 contenders supported by 92% of MPs on practically the same policy.

2. The Vote before them was not a vote against a Govt policy, it was a vote for an opposition policy - that is a huge difference.

[Witton Park]

Very important point WP. Thinking about it, its all Camerons fault again. He allowed MP's to vote with their conscience not to a party line at the referendum...maybe they have just extended that thought process??

I would frame it differently.

Why does a Govt put forward a proposal? Because they think it's a good idea.

You propose an in/out referendum, then you should support the change, or why propose it?

It's a bit like Labour now. They can't get away with negotiating a deal and then recommending we don't adopt it.

[Stagger]

I've never known such spineless opposition.

[Stagger]

Chance of an election and they bottle it.

[Wheeze]

They haven't bottled it Stagger. They will approve one on condition that no deal is off the table.

[Stagger]

The majority voted LEAVE.

Just LEAVE and sort deal's out over the coming year's. Easy as that.

[anthonykay]

The majority voted LEAVE.

The problem is that the majority voted Leave in 2016, and then in 2017 they voted for a legislature with a majority of MPs who wanted to Remain.