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Thread: Brexit

  1. #501
    Master DrPatrickBarry's Avatar
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    This is a great paragraph

    It may seem strange to call this slow collapse invisible since so much of it is obvious: the deep uncertainties about the union after the Good Friday agreement of 1998 and the establishment of the Scottish parliament the following year; the consequent rise of English nationalism; the profound regional inequalities within England itself; the generational divergence of values and aspirations; the undermining of the welfare state and its promise of shared citizenship; the contempt for the poor and vulnerable expressed through austerity; the rise of a sensationally self-indulgent and clownish ruling class. But the collective effects of these interrelated developments do seem to have been barely visible within the political mainstream until David Cameron accidentally took the lid off by calling a referendum and asking people to endorse the status quo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...it-for-purpose

    It is what I have always thought, people are RIGHTLY angry, but it is a case of they are angry at the wrong people.

  2. #502
    Master DrPatrickBarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever View Post
    under no illusions that this is what would happen.
    Why has the N.I border issue suddendly popped out of nowhere?
    Now you will reply that "it is a made up issue to frustrate brexit".

    Do you understand the WTO's Most favoured nation rules? It is becasue of those that both the UK and Eire will HAVE to impose a hard border.

    This example from the article below explains it.

    Suppose the UK and EU trade on WTO terms after Brexit. Suppose American apples arriving in the UK at an English port have to go through controls, but Irish apples crossing the border into Northern Ireland (also the UK) do not. Then the US could complain that its apples were discriminated against. They weren’t given equal treatment with Irish apples when they entered the UK.

    The US might seek a legal ruling in WTO dispute settlement. Months or years later, the ruling might conclude that the UK had discriminated. So either checks at the English ports would have to be dropped, or checks at the Irish border would have to be set up.

    In other words, while no WTO rule actually says the UK will have to set up border checks, the non-discrimination rule may force it to.



    https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/...their-borders/

  3. #503
    Moderator noel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever View Post
    I don't really think there is that division among people who actually voted Leave. The motto of the Leave campaign was "Take Back Control" and they talked about taking it in terms of laws, borders and money. The only way to achieve that is to leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union. At various parts of the campaign it was also expressly stated by both sides that this is what leaving would mean. So anybody who voted Leave and watched any part of the campaign could be under no illusions that this is what would happen.
    Presumably someone has done a poll on this? Along the lines of:
    Q1: what did you vote in the referendum
    Q2: do you favour a no-deal Brexit (or however you want to phrase it - possibly along the lines of no customs union, since as you rightly point out a deal not involving a customs union could have been developed)

    I'd be very interested to see the results.

  4. #504
    Master Wheeze's Avatar
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    Agreed...all this 'deal' stuff is just a huge political fudge. The voters were NOT asked if they wanted to leave with a deal. It was a simple binary choice. Leave or remain. Like anything else, most reasonable people would realise that leaving something may come at a price. Now we have EU and UK politicians tugging at our sleeve saying 'oh, you can't just walk out the door...you have to have a deal to do that'. What nonsense!
    Simon Blease
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  5. #505
    Master Muddy Retriever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noel View Post
    Presumably someone has done a poll on this? Along the lines of:
    Q1: what did you vote in the referendum
    Q2: do you favour a no-deal Brexit (or however you want to phrase it - possibly along the lines of no customs union, since as you rightly point out a deal not involving a customs union could have been developed)

    I'd be very interested to see the results.
    I'm sure I've seen a poll among Leave voters that shows more favour no-deal than May's deal - I can't find it though. Of course May would argue that her deal honours the result of the referendum since it ends free movement. This might convince some leavers. But I haven't seen a poll where the Norway plus Customs Union option is included. Among Leavers I would think it would command very little support since it is obviously barely leaving at all. I imagine it would find some support among Soft Remainers however.

    This is an interesting poll though. It found that 70% of voters in Sunderland want to leave without a deal. This is more than the percentage that voted for Brexit in the first place.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/70-o...o-deal-brexit/

  6. #506
    Master DrPatrickBarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever View Post
    I'm sure I've seen a poll among Leave voters that shows more favour no-deal than May's deal - I can't find it though.
    That may well be true.
    But the bigger question, does the majority of the population want a No Deal Brexit?

    Does the goverment have any mandate for it then.

  7. #507
    Master Muddy Retriever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry View Post
    That may well be true.
    But the bigger question, does the majority of the population want a No Deal Brexit?

    Does the goverment have any mandate for it then.
    Maybe not but I was actually answering Noel's specific point about the views of Leave voters.

    No-deal however is the default option and current legal position, Parliament voted to leave the EU on 29th March this year. If the Government and Parliament do not come up with an agreed alternative (that the EU also agrees with) or do something to extend or revoke Article 50 then it will happen.

  8. #508
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    I think 95% of the article is spot on (and 100% of the title). It is worth digesting and reflecting on at this point in proceedings.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry View Post
    This is a great paragraph

    It may seem strange to call this slow collapse invisible since so much of it is obvious: the deep uncertainties about the union after the Good Friday agreement of 1998 and the establishment of the Scottish parliament the following year; the consequent rise of English nationalism; the profound regional inequalities within England itself; the generational divergence of values and aspirations; the undermining of the welfare state and its promise of shared citizenship; the contempt for the poor and vulnerable expressed through austerity; the rise of a sensationally self-indulgent and clownish ruling class. But the collective effects of these interrelated developments do seem to have been barely visible within the political mainstream until David Cameron accidentally took the lid off by calling a referendum and asking people to endorse the status quo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...it-for-purpose

    It is what I have always thought, people are RIGHTLY angry, but it is a case of they are angry at the wrong people.
    Last edited by OB1; 18-01-2019 at 06:15 PM.
    Powered by Ugali.

  9. #509
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    I voted to leave and I have no interest in deal or no deal.
    I just want out!

    Bye bye Europe HELLO Great Britain.

    Does anyone think we wouldn't buy BMW, Audi or French wine any more.
    Of course we will and they will buy our stuff too.

    No change

  10. #510
    Moderator noel's Avatar
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    Thanks Stagger. I think that probably sums up the mood among leave voters. There's certainly a lot of "just get on with it", which is a very fair criticism. I also agree with CL, that's it must be hard for the current leaders to deliver on this, given that most of them are remainers.

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