Brexit

[Oracle]

SME’s are the largest private sector employers iirc? (Google says so but only glancing)

How reliant those SMEs are on big business is another thing.

Reliant on EU or reliant on big business? I can only comment that as someone with practical experience of exporting in and outside eu, from SMEs before and after europe was supposedly open for business, EU made that harder not easier.

As you notice such as Dyson as worldwide exporter is also a brexiteer. One problem big business has is EU can get you in their crosshairs. They made yet another risible decision in Dysons case to limit the power of vaccuum motors (a direct attack on Dyson by vested German interests) And that is one of the problems with EU:The laws originate behind closed doors from unelected officials as a result of shady deals.No transparency at all. No democratic accountability. Bills deliberately made so big, they cannot be addressed line by line, take it all or leave it. Although the entire commission resigned one year for shameful behaviour, they have taken care not to get caught ever since by wiping their fingerprints first.

[shaunaneto]

Big business, as clearly stated.

[Oracle]

Big business, as clearly stated.

But then why was it assumed (by others not you) that big business preferred Norway , or indeed we are more reliant on big business. I dont see the connection.

As you rightly state SME is the bigger employer and more importantly it is the nursery from which all subsequent big business grows. National, globalised or regionalised in europe is a more important distinction than size. One distinction I did make: EU is more able to target you adversely as a big business or succumb to shady deals. Being too big to duck your head under the parapet is more of a problem than help.

[DrPatrickBarry]

So are you saying stuff what the people want, it's only the view of big business that counts?

Nope, but are they necessarly different?

[DrPatrickBarry]

(a direct attack on Dyson by vested German interests)

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you

Reminds me of a very funny song from years ago.

Remember when you ran away and I got on my knees and begged you not to leave because I'd go berserk?
Well, you left me anyhow and then the days got worse and worse and now you see I've gone completely out of my mind
And, they're coming to take me away, ha, ha
They're coming to take me away, ho, ho, hee, hee, ha, ha
To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats
And they're coming to take me away, ha, ha

You thought it was a joke and so you laughed, you laughed when I had said that losing you would make me flip my lid, right?
You know you laughed
I heard you laugh, you laughed, you laughed and laughed and then you left but now you know I'm utterly mad
And, they're coming to take me away, ha, ha
They're coming to take me away, ho, ho, hee, hee, ha, ha
To the happy home with trees and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs and toes
And they're coming to take me away, ha, ha

I cooked your food, I cleaned your house and this is how you pay me back for all my kind unselfish loving deeds, huh?
Well, you just wait, they'll find you yet
And when they do, they'll put you in the A. S. P. C. A, you mangy mutt
And, they're coming to take me away, ha, ha
They're coming to take me away, ho, ho, hee, hee, ha, ha
To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats
And they're coming to take me away, ha, ha
To the happy home with trees and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs and toes
And they're coming to take me away, ha, ha
To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men...

[Oracle]

Hardly paranoia.The EU has a lot of form.

Like the clause some years ago buried in a massive bill that aimed to prevent generic car part manufacturers from making parts once the originator had ceased making them. Yes it was real. And ultimately by embarassment it was removed. Now consider who put the clause there. Who did it serve? It certainly did not help citizens.It can only have been a dirty deal with vested interest done behind commissioner doors. The old trick from yes minister of of hiding a sheet of paper you do not want others to see in the middle of a big stack. Rose tinted remainers gloss over it all.

That is the real democratic deficit. Where legislation comes from, and the lack of transparency on who influenced it. And how massive bills are adopted all or nothing. Now read the dyson decision in that light. Who did it serve?

The EU prefers discussion about bent bananas because as a strawman regarding EU defects they can easily defeat it. The truth is infinitely worse. The commisioners are understandably much more careful about hiding their tracks now.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you

Remember when you ran away
And I got on my knees
And begged you not to leave
Because I'd go beserk
Well you left me anyhow
And then the days got worse and worse
And now you see I've gone
Completely out of my mind
And they're coming to take me away ha-haaa
They're coming to take me away ho-ho hee-hee ha-haaa
To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men
In their clean white coats
And they're coming to take me away ha-haaa
You thought it was a joke
And so you laughed
You laughed when I said
That losing you would make me flip my lid
Right?
You know you laughed
I heard you laugh, you laughed
You laughed and laughed and then you left
But now you know I'm utterly mad
And they're coming to take me away ha-haaa
They're…

[Witton Park]

given the composition of MP's in the Commons a

for now

[Muddy Retriever]

Nope, but are they necessarly different?

Well yes they are.

Norway plus doesn't give leavers what they wanted and for remainers who want to see the UK as a full member of the EU, it doesn't give them what they want either.

It leaves the UK as a rule taker. As I said, worst of all worlds.

I suspect the reason so many MP's are keen on it is because they see it as a way back into the EU. I think they hope that people will eventually decide that since we aren't getting any of the benefits of leaving, we might as well be in the EU.

[Oracle]

I think they hope that people will eventually decide that since we aren't getting any of the benefits of leaving, we might as well be in the EU.

Which rather disgregards the fact that unless we actually leave in fact (not just name) no benefits will accrue, indeed it will be worse. Either in or out. It is like choosing which side of a river to walk. Either bank is safe, even with the hostility on the EU side. Walking down the middle is a sure way of drowning.

But Remainers are naieve if they think we can go back: if we do we will face vengeance. The only way is rescind A50 to keep the present veto. EU hopes we will go back but only after Mar 29 so they can strip away all the benefits if we rejoin.

[Witton Park]

I suspect the reason so many MP's are keen on it is because they see it as a way back into the EU.

That's why I'm amazed the Remainers MPs and in particular Labour aren't supporting Mrs May. The reasons they give are usually more to do with the future declaration, which may as well be no there for all it's legal standing.
Labour can have all they ask for with the PMs deal.

I saw her plan and backstop described as a period of reflection the other day, where the EU can hold us, akin to a naughty corner, until we realise the error of our ways and ask to be let back out of the corner.

It maintains regulatory alignment, keeps us under EU rules almost certainly until the next General Election and blocks any clean Brexit.