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Thread: GPS in fell races

  1. #41
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    How many folks would not get round the BG if gps wasn't used. I suggest a lot less. This is also a timed fell runner event.

  2. #42
    Master GeoffB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    Moral Advice Sought For A Friend...

    ...does his planned approach have the support of the Forum fell running community?
    NO!!!

  3. #43
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    As DazTheSlug says, it is pretty easy to police, the High Peak Marathon among others require that you put any GPS device in a sealed bag. If the bag is opened before the end of the race you are DQ'd. The problem is that GPS enabled watches are little different in appearance to standard watches these days so it's hard to tell at a glance if someone is wearing one. If a race is marked as "Navigation experience required" then it's up to each individual to step up to the mark not drag things down to their level.

    Having an idea of where you are in relation to features on the landscape is part of fell craft, you don't get that from being a dot on a screen (of any size). If the ordure hits the air distribution device then you need to know or figure out escape routes *from your current position*

    It does come down to honesty/personal integrity as well.

    <BGClub hat on>There is no practical way we, as a club, can police what individual contenders use during their attempt nor would we wish to. Again it comes down to honesty and integrity. The round for the most part follows existing paths, do you really need to follow a dot on a screen for that? There's a few sections, such as locating the ramps on Bowfell, that are BGR specific but that's what reccies are for.</BGClub hat off>

    For most races there's little micro-navigation required, it's more a case of follow a path/line to a feature then turn one way or the other. Why use someone else's favoured "short-cut"? It might not suite you and if you don't know it well enough and how it relates to the general race route it's going to cost you time.
    Bob

    http://bobwightman.co.uk/run/bob_graham.php

    Without me you'd be one place nearer the back

  4. #44
    Moderator noel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    It does come down to honesty/personal integrity as well.
    I'm a big fan of these attributes. But if half the field doesn't view the issue in the same way and are happily gaining an advantage without even perceiving themselves as dishonest, it would seem quixotic for me to handicap myself.

    I think some of the more athletic end of the field don't share our love of mountain-craft, or know they are not particularly good at it.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by noel View Post
    I'm a big fan of these attributes. But if half the field doesn't view the issue in the same way and are happily gaining an advantage without even perceiving themselves as dishonest, it would seem quixotic for me to handicap myself.

    I think some of the more athletic end of the field don't share our love of mountain-craft, or know they are not particularly good at it.
    Noel

    Without, in my case, being disingenuously modest, I don't think the world cares tuppence if you, me or Joe Jogger pootles round with a GPS (if I could work one), although purist eyes may be raised to the heavens, but at the pointy end if someone is following the trace on his watch to win medals over someone subscribing to the traditional ethics of fell running then that, I suggest, is a matter worthy of debate.

    Sancho Panza
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  6. #46
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    First it was Inov8s replacing Walshes, then it was compression socks and metric measurements, now the FRA has a Facebook... what next? Modern navigational devices!? Seems to me like fell racing is no longer the anachronistic, honest to goodness sport it once was.

    I hear bog-snorkelling's still pretty wild. Tha GPS'll do yer no good in t'bog, lad.
    Geoff Clarke

  7. #47
    Senior Member RaceTheSweeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    Noel

    Without, in my case, being disingenuously modest, I don't think the world cares tuppence if you, me or Joe Jogger pootles round with a GPS (if I could work one), although purist eyes may be raised to the heavens, but at the pointy end if someone is following the trace on his watch to win medals over someone subscribing to the traditional ethics of fell running then that, I suggest, is a matter worthy of debate.

    Sancho Panza
    It is worthy of debate. I think for the whole field not just those at the pointy end. As I said in my first post "If you want to follow a marked track then do a Trail race." If it's a particularly hard route and I do not know it (as in done it before or completed a recce), I would have to stop a lot and work my way around the route pretty slowly. I'm pretty good at navigation but only when walking. Rubbish if running. Having a track on my watch would be great but I wouldn't even dream of it! The hubby's navigation when running is really good (thumb compass) and he loves it. If the clag is down it gives him an advantage. Is it fair, even though he is probably mid pack that someone that is normally behind him in races beats him by following a GPS trail? Personally, I think that is pretty crap! I know it would be difficult to police. However, we could ensure that in a race scenario it's not fair play. It should be a hollow victory to gain any places no matter where you are in the pack by using GPS. At the Mourne Highline it was being discussed openly on the start line as if it was perfectly acceptable.

    So to all FRA race organisers what can we do about it?
    Our race is a small one but there are a few places where knowing a certain line will be an advantage. I don't think we would go down the route of, seal it in a bag, as that is a bit of overkill for our little race. However, a little note stating our thoughts on it (in a polite way) would maybe stop some from using it or at least make them realise it's not acceptable in any FRA race situation.
    We would love some thought's on this?

  8. #48
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    Sue i completely admire your viewpoint, and if everyone were of the same opinion then there wouldn't be an issue. But it's evident from everyone's anecdotes that many people don't share the same opinion.

    ba-ba pasted a snippet of a conversation he had with someone on the FRA, and it said they would not be looking to outlaw GPS unless a specific 'non GPS' event (as it is almost impossible to police, i personally think that is a sensible stance to take). And seeing as most events are ran under FRA rules then i don't think there's much that can be done, unless organisers are specifically writing it into their rules, a la LDMT & Welsh1000.

    I was attracted to fellrunning by three main things...

    1 - a love for the fells
    2 - the difficulty of the sport (i was at pro level in another sport before i started on the fells, so i'm fairly obviously up for a challenge).
    3 - the fact that it remains generally free of cheating, and all the things which I've seen infest in sports like football.

    But i'm a competitive bastard, and if others on the start line are obviously using GPS, and it is not strictly against the rules of the race in question, then i find it hard to swallow that i should disadvantage myself. As i say on many occasions on this very forum "it is a race, after all...."

    (although on my favourite races, as has been said on here a few times, once you know them well enough, then it matters not whether you have GPS or not, as you'll run on memory). [although memory clearly didn't stop me getting lost on the LMV this year, in completely clear weather, in the 3rd year that i'd ran it, within half a mile of the finish!!]
    Last edited by Travs; 19-04-2018 at 01:53 PM.

  9. #49
    Senior Member stumpy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post


    <BGClub hat on>There is no practical way we, as a club, can police what individual contenders use during their attempt nor would we wish to. Again it comes down to honesty and integrity. The round for the most part follows existing paths, do you really need to follow a dot on a screen for that? There's a few sections, such as locating the ramps on Bowfell, that are BGR specific but that's what reccies are for.</BGClub hat off>
    Hehe - on a recent recce of leg 3 I managed to cock that up, even after moving from map to GPS watch OS grid reference, the finally to zooming in on my phone's OS map GPS!!! I was wanting to be accurate as there was a fair bit of compacted snow around and I didn't want to end up taking the quick way down! In the end, it turned out my gut instinct in reading the terrain was the right line and all the fancy navigation aids were just misleading :-)

    As I said before, I would agree that following a pre-loaded route seems to me to be against the ethics of fell-running, but it probably needs a consensus as to what counts as an unfair technological advantage. Even a compass is a form of man-made technology, and the very map used (unless it's an old 1" one!) will have had GPS input to the map.

  10. #50
    Senior Member RaceTheSweeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travs View Post
    Sue i completely admire your viewpoint, and if everyone were of the same opinion then there wouldn't be an issue. But it's evident from everyone's anecdotes that many people don't share the same opinion.

    But i'm a competitive bastard, and if others on the start line are obviously using GPS, and it is not strictly against the rules of the race in question, then i find it hard to swallow that i should disadvantage myself. As i say on many occasions on this very forum "it is a race, after all...."
    I'm not saying make it against the rules. I'm saying make it "shameful" to do it. If we all thought well he/she is doing it so I will too then we may as well make fell running into Trail races. Nigel (and many on here) would never do it even if it meant he was the only one using a map and compass and everyone else was following an arrow. We know some did it at the Mourne Skyline so let's ask the question "Did you use a GPS tracker to navigate your way around?" I bet no one owns up to it which means they actually do know it's not right and not fair play.

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