The dark arts...

[Dave_Mole]

To be fair to Paul Dodd (although I disagree with his comment): he is actually a fell runner and organises some South Welsh races.

[ChevinbyTorchlight]

I find it insulting, and dangerous, that someone proclaiming to be a fell runner is levelling criticism in this way at other fell runners. It's a typically short sighted view and serves only to increase the noise around how we should change to be more 'inclusive', when in actual fact no one is excluded from learning how to properly use a map & compass. It's not tradition for traditions sake, it's a safety aspect, as evidenced by the almost weekly stories from various mountain rescue organisations about people being caught out on British hills due to not carrying a map & compass, or not having the skills to use them, or the experience to execute sound mountain judgement.

I don't know the WFRA rules, or the nature of this guys races, so it may be that a lower level course which is fully flagged is hampered by the rules. But I also can't see how relying purely on GPS for route finding in more testing terrain can result in anything but trouble in the long term.

[Wheeze]

I suspect it will not be long before WFRA adopts the eFRA stance of allowing RO's to have GPS permitted races as long as it is clearly stated.
I was not party to the WFRA discussions that led to the total ban of GPS in WFRA races. It may be that GPS permitted races will occur under the Welsh Athletics banner and WFRA wanted to maintain a separate identity? Perhaps someone from t'committee will come and illuminate!

[Dave_Mole]

I wasn't party to the discussions, but was at the AGM when the decision was made. The feeling was that allowing ROs to choose was a fudge and that "true" fell racing meant no GPS use (apart from in an emergency). I think the statement that came out announcing the decision said something about GPS use being against the spirit/ethos of the sport so I think it's pretty unlikely that there'll be a swing towards an English FRA stance.

[anthonykay]

These days we use OS 1:25000 maps or Harvey maps to navigate around fell race courses, but there was a time when people running or walking on the fells were content to use OS 1:50000 maps, and some will remember using OS 1:63360 (one inch to a mile) maps.

Last night I was looking at my copy of OS 1:50000 sheet 161, bought in 1981 the first time I ran the Llanbedr-Blaenafon race. I was surprised to see that not only had I marked the control points for that race on the map, but I had also marked the route of the Black Mountains race. This means that I was still sometimes using 1:50000 maps for fell races as late as 1989, the first year I ran the Black Mountains race. Bt I don't remember having any navigational difficulties in that race, not even on the notorious forest section.

[Wheeze]

Thanks Dave. Good update. Must say I'm surprised. Whilst I personally agree with the WFRA stance, I also feel that the RO should have some autonomy about how he wants to put on a race. I think the eFRA position is a good one and updates the LK/NS grading that used to apply.

Hey, Anthony, I only ever used 50k maps! 25k was for wimps!!

[Graham Breeze]

I wasn't party to the discussions, but was at the AGM when the decision was made. The feeling was that allowing ROs to choose was a fudge and that "true" fell racing meant no GPS use (apart from in an emergency). I think the statement that came out announcing the decision said something about GPS use being against the spirit/ethos of the sport so I think it's pretty unlikely that there'll be a swing towards an English FRA stance.

Interesting and thank you.

I have been a RO, I’ve been the Chairman of the FRA and I have run in a few fell races.

The FRA has “governed” fell running in England for a long time and along the way has introduced every rule that RO (and competitors) have had to comply with to organise races under the FRA umbrella, because in 1970 there were no rules.

Whatever the FRA decides to do it always has to take its 300 or so RO with it because it is RO than organise races.The FRA cannot impose rules that RO in general will not accept - or schism will follow. Virtually every change ever made has been met with some resistance - 300 RO are never going to agree about anything - but the FRA always has to get things broadly right or it will not be governing anything.

So whilst I think that runners following “bread crumb” traces in, say, the Lakeland Classics is an appalling prospect and contrary to the "ethos" of the sport I love, I think the FRA recognising that it is for the RO to organise their race in their own way - subject to overriding rules about safety - was a sound judgement on its part.

And for those who observe the sport it will be interesting to see how things develop. The closest relationship is not with the FRA Committee but between competitors and race organisers - both of which will change over time.

[Wheeze]

Moley notes that Paul Dodd is not keen and thinks we should move with the times. He's on record as saying this in the BBC news website:

Paul Dodd, 61, a member of Chepstow Harriers Running Club and a race organiser, would like to see the sport move with the times to help attract more people.

"Fell running seems to be the reserve of traditionalists - to them, a big part of fell running is the dark art of navigating with a compass and a map," he said.

"It's a shame there's this barrier to more people getting into the sport because we insist on them using this ancient dark art."

I would be a little wary of motive here since Paul is involved in commercial running events. So, obviously, increasing participation increases income. I've always felt that we should not be actively encouraging more people but putting on something that will attract those of like mind. Those who find it unacceptable to use their GPS perhaps are not of 'like mind'? At least WFRA have given a very clear, unambiguous position.

In the end, its more about the challenge of running in the hills on your wits and skill than a tech-fest which is perhaps why the vote at WFRA AGM went the way it did.

[Stagger]

All becomes clear Wheeze.

He is in it for money.

[ba-ba]

Can always help races register with trail running or athletics body then allow GPS. Not sure how much more expensive this is.

Having done many kinds of fell racing across the country, I think I've been through all permutations of different views, (with the exception of GPS allowed at all events!) - I am generally an appeaser.

I've had a bit of contact with the FRA sec on the issue and there does appear to be some deviation in opinion across the committee - which I think is a good thing as different views need to be discussed. Faceache mud slinging and slanging matches does not a constructive debate make.

Initially I think the main thing that needs to be maintained is full support/backing for race organisers were there to be a fatality and the coroner said 'but they could have had GPS'. I think everything else, whilst some bits may be important, is secondary to this.