New political party?

[noel]

Yes, also good points. It depends what axis you're viewing it on. Heseltine is right-wing in that he was a free-marketeer and libertarian, but doesn't agree with the majority of the right of his party over Europe.

Brexit is a strange situation in terms of left and right wing. At a very broad-brush level it is the centrists who are pro-Europe, and the more right-wing and left-wing are more eurosceptic.

[Muddy Retriever]

At a very broad-brush level it is the centrists who are pro-Europe, and the more right-wing and left-wing are more eurosceptic.

I think it was ever thus. In 1975 the likes of Tony Benn and Enoch Powell formed an unholy alliance against EU membership. But opposition to the EU has become more mainstream in the intervening years. In 1975 Margaret Thatcher was an enthusiastic supporter of membership but had she been alive in 2016 I would have expected her to be in favour of leaving. Even the centrist David Owen, who left Labour in 1981 to from the SDP partly because of Labour's opposition to the EU at that point, is now a leaver. I think that what's changed is that the EU is a much more intrusive beast than it was in the mid 70's.

[shaunaneto]

But I cannot understand the logic of the Tory splitters. Their manifesto explicitly promised to leave the Customs Union and Single Market. If they disagreed with that why did they stand as Tory MP's in that election in the first place?

This has become standard practice for the Tories. Signed up to a deal, then quit the next day in protest at the deal.

[noel]

This has become standard practice for the Tories. Signed up to a deal, then quit the next day in protest at the deal.

Or in the case of Dominic Raab, negotiate a deal then resign saying he didn't agree with it.

To be fair to Dominic, it became abundantly clear that he had no real say in the deal - it was above his pay-grade.

[Muddy Retriever]

Breaking news. Ian Austin MP has now quit the Labour Party.

"I always tell them the truth and I could never ask local people to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.

"I am appalled at the offence and distress Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party have caused to Jewish people.

"It is terrible that a culture of extremism, anti-Semitism and intolerance is driving out good MPs and decent people who have committed their life to mainstream politics.

"The hard truth is that the party is tougher on the people complaining about anti-Semitism than it is on the anti-Semites."

Damning indeed.

Apparently Austin is not joining the Independent Group as he is not in favour of overturning the referendum result.

I think this demonstrates the difference between the Tory and Labour defectors. The Tory ones are having a hissy fit and stropping off because they can't get their way over Brexit (even though they stood under a manifesto commitment to leave the Single Market and Customs Union). Some of the Labour ones have much deeper concerns with regard to the darker side of their party's leadership and followers.

[noel]

I'm not sure what to make of this anti-semitic stuff. Clearly those in the know have more insight into this than I have.

Is it that Jeremy Corbin is pro-Palestinian (and therefore anti-Israel), or is he actually anti-Jewish? I can't separate out his opinions on the actions of Israel (which may or may not be justified) from his opinions on whether Jewish people should have the same religious freedoms as those who follow Christianity or Islam, etc.

[DrPatrickBarry]

I heard yesterday that Netanyahu is in coalition talks with extreemist Jewish parties. That can only be bad for the palestinians. You are alowed to say that Israelis goverment policies are bad but not Jewish people are bad. This is despite the fact that Jewish people are electing the goverment that is doing those bad things.

Labour are really tying themselves in knots trying to get the right balance and failing miserably.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/20/m...ntl/index.html

[Stolly]

I disagree Pat.

If the Remainers accept that we decided to Leave, so there is a no double or quits and what any 2nd ref would be about would be "what kind of leave" I think most would say OK....

Haha, I massively disagree Witton.

I just wrote a ton of stuff but, to be honest, it won't make much difference to the hard core leavers on here so I've saved you the effort of reading it all and have deleted it .

I'll just leave this with you though: If there is a second referendum offering the choice to remain, remain would win comfortably today just on the back of the number of brexit voters that are now dead and the fact that the young pro-remain voters would massively mobilise this time round. That's completely ignoring the lies, the bullshit figures about the NHS on the bus, the bullshit about Turkey, the inappropriate funding, the fact that 'project fear' is largely proving itself right, that we didn't win the world wars on our own and that Brexit won't in any way curtail immigration (we'll just get different immigrants from elsewhere in the world).

And even if Brexit goes through, by the time it has and the dust has settled (say in ten years time) the younger pro-Europeans will be in the ascendence and we'll end up rejoining anyway

[Derby Tup]

But Stolly you forgot about the blue passports. That’s a massive win

[Muddy Retriever]

Is it that Jeremy Corbin is pro-Palestinian (and therefore anti-Israel), or is he actually anti-Jewish?

I would say both. I think he dislikes Jews and he doesn't like Israel - presumably because it is inhabited by many Jews. In terms of examples, I'm spoilt for choice, it's difficult to know where to start.

- There was his support for the artist who painted a blatantly anti-semitic mural.
- Saying of "Zionists" that “They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either. Manuel does understand English irony, and uses it very effectively. So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with."
- Membership of Facebook Groups which contained many anti-semitic tropes and comments.
- Trying to prevent Labour from adopting the internationally recognised definition of anti-semitism.
- Saying that it was an "honour and pleasure" to host "our friends" from Hamas and Hezbollah in Parliament. Both groups are dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
- Inviting for tea in Parliament the Palestinian hate preacher Raed Salah. He described him as “a very honoured citizen” whose "voice must be heard.” Saleh was found by a British court to have used the “blood libel” This is a vile anti-semitic slur that claims Jews murder christian children and use their blood in religious rituals
- Laying a wreath near the graves of the Black September terrorists who murdered Jewish athletes at the Munich Olympics.

According to a poll this year by the Jewish Chronicle almost 40% of Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn became Prime minister . Can't really blame them can you.