New political party?

[Witton Park]

There isn't anything wrong in being of the left or of the right. I genuinely believe that both have similar aims, but different ways of reaching them, a bit like making a route option in a fell race.

It is mostly just a difference of balance between how much tax the state should take to spend on our behalf and how much the state should get involved in trying to shape our behaviour.

I think the issue for most regular voters is that the parties moved away from them.

Of those voting, the UK is roughly split in to 30% each for centre right, centre left and floater with the remaining 10% going to the fringes.

The fight over the centre ground we have seen since the mid 90s has meant Labour and Tory have largely left their core supporters homeless and been battling it out with the LibDems over the same turf, with little difference between them.

Not many have been casting a vote with genuine enthusiasm. Mostly it has been about the least bad option.

I genuinely hope we get Brexit, a proper clean one. I think it will provide the political renewal the country needs rather than the vacuous sound-bite and focus group led politics of the last 20 odd years.

[DrPatrickBarry]

I genuinely hope we get Brexit, a proper clean one..

I am not sure the remain voting, people of Northern would agree with your definiton of a clean brexit.
After twenty years they will be back to more than 200 of these again.
county-fermanagh-northern-ireland-october-1980-cross-border-road-blocks-EECK5T.jpg

During the "troubles" about 18 of the 280ish road border crossings, were open. It would be impossible to police that as a Single Market border, so it would have to go back to most of them being permentaly closed.

[shaunaneto]

I genuinely believe that both have similar aims, but different ways of reaching them, a bit like making a route option in a fell race.

One of the stand out memories for me was along those lines. Pro Indy supporter just couldn’t get his head round that the Scot Con councillor genuinely wanted the best for her community and Scotland. Just via a different path.

I knew her fairly well at the time and have no doubt she genuinely cares and wanted the best.

[Oracle]

It is a convenient EU myth. No border can ever be perfect - and northern ireland has very few deep sea water ports and airports combined. So origin of goods is checkable primarily at source for all big and medium transporters. So done electronically.

So if the EU erect a border, it will be deliberate and unncessary provocation.
But given a choice between them trapping us in a customs union by annexing northern ireland to prevent us trading elsewhere (AKA backstop) until we agree to a deal that includes the customs union (to prevent us trading elsewhere) which is the EU objective - No deal at all is by far the best option to avoid the trap, and the remainer myths will be seen for what they are. Which is why EU are running scared now we are calling their bluff..

Varadkar is fighting because given the choice between erecting an unnecessary wall, and succumbing to brussels demands to check HIS goods leaving ireland for the EU, he will be obliged to pick the latter, and will rapidly come to our conclusion of how unnecessary it is: the myths will then unfurl. And from being the bully, Varadkar will rapidly become the bullied. Substantial EU Fines for not building a wall! Then the truth will out on who really wants to breach good friday because of intransigence- the EU!!!!!

Karma.....

I am not sure the remain voting, people of Northern would agree with your definiton of a clean brexit.
After twenty years they will be back to more than 200 of these again.
county-fermanagh-northern-ireland-october-1980-cross-border-road-blocks-EECK5T.jpg

During the "troubles" about 18 of the 280ish road border crossings, were open. It would be impossible to police that as a Single Market border, so it would have to go back to most of them being permentaly closed.

[Witton Park]

I am not sure the remain voting, people of Northern would agree with your definiton of a clean brexit.
After twenty years they will be back to more than 200 of these again.
county-fermanagh-northern-ireland-october-1980-cross-border-road-blocks-EECK5T.jpg

During the "troubles" about 18 of the 280ish road border crossings, were open. It would be impossible to police that as a Single Market border, so it would have to go back to most of them being permentaly closed.

Pat the ideal of the Single Market and this ring of steel around it is quaint, but completely bogus.

The idea that at the Port of Rotterdam (for example) the 10s of 1,000s of containers coming in daily are checked and tested to make sure that the contents meet with EU rules and regs is madness.

The integrity of the single market is in the hands of the importer / manufacturer.

If the importer or manufacturer wants to cut corners they can.

In my time in the footwear industry I've seen it on a number of occasions. I can guarantee that out there in store now there are items of footwear containing heavy metals and azo dyes. They are illegal.
The UK and German customers were very strict. They required a clean chemical test certificate prior to shipping by an independent approved laboratory.

Still, testing a sample doesn't mean the bulk production was clean.

But the Spanish and French didn't give a toss. They just shipped. Price was king.

I'm going back almost 10 years since I was closely involved, but I cant' see anything having changed.

[CL]

That's interesting, because my disgust with the way Brexit is being handled has made me go the opposite way. After the referendum result, I was disappointed but thought, "Never mind, I'm sure we'll muddle through and it won't be a disaster". Now that the politicians seem determined to make sure that it is a disaster, I'm really resenting the Brexiteers in the Tory party who kicked the whole thing off.

That's crazy Anthony! How can you blame the Brexiteers when it's the Remainers who control parliament? Brexiteers have one view, Remainers another. There's nothing wrong with that. But once the decision was made to leave it was in the interests of this country for them to stand together in achieving a good deal. Instead the Remainers have played into the hands of the EU with their incessant whingeing.

As the 'The Oracle' has made clear those who think a second referendum and a win for the Remainers would make everything Okay again - that we can carry on as before - are not thinking straight. The weakness displayed by the UK would be seized upon and we'd be pushed around even more than before. In fact reversing the decision now could cause the sort of chaos that Stolly is really worried about.

[anthonykay]

That's crazy Anthony! How can you blame the Brexiteers when it's the Remainers who control parliament? Brexiteers have one view, Remainers another. There's nothing wrong with that. But once the decision was made to leave it was in the interests of this country for them to stand together in achieving a good deal. Instead the Remainers have played into the hands of the EU with their incessant whingeing.

As the 'The Oracle' has made clear those who think a second referendum and a win for the Remainers would make everything Okay again - that we can carry on as before - are not thinking straight. The weakness displayed by the UK would be seized upon and we'd be pushed around even more than before. In fact reversing the decision now could cause the sort of chaos that Stolly is really worried about.

I think you misunderstand my comment that you quoted. The Remainers may control Parliament, but they don't seem to have much control of the Tory Party. So when I referred to "the Brexiteers in the Tory party who kicked the whole thing off" I meant the people who forced Cameron to put a referendum in his 2015 manifesto. The point is that if Brexit does turn out as chaotic as it seems to be, it is because the interests of the Tory Party were put ahead of those of the country.

And no, I don't support another referendum: much as I would in principle like the decision to be reversed, I do realise that doing so now would likely cause far more problems than it solves.

[Oracle]

It is time for remainers to confront the truth: EU has always acted in bad faith , preferring ideology to the wellbeing of its own members, The euro will destroy it with provably failed ideology. Like all fanatical organisations EU will destroy itself. It has always cherry picked British money and market,and Consistently ignored even reasonable suggestions, including Cameron's last stand to get them to see reason.

Brexit is not a Tory issue, it is a democratic majority against a history of EU bad behaviour. To consider it a Tory issue is to show the same contempt EU has always shown for democracy.

EU has failed to negotiate in good faith indeed refuses to negotiate at all. The deal is not a deal. It is Demanding money with menaces and trying to annexe Northern Ireland. Eu is determined to foment civil unrest, bringing us to where we are. It prefers both sides to lose. The only way to deal with such bullies is stand up to them. Just as we did not capitulate to the third reich, nor must we capitulate to the fourth.

It would have been preferable to get a win win Deal. EU refuses to talk about it, let alone do it. That is the problem with fanatics that prefer ideology to pragmatism, and the most rose tinted remainers can no longer support the false notion of the EU as a partner for mutual benefit. That is how nasty they are. So be it. No deal it is. We can never go back. There is a good future outside the eu provided we step out of the trap.

I think you misunderstand my comment that you quoted. The Remainers may control Parliament, but they don't seem to have much control of the Tory Party. So when I referred to "the Brexiteers in the Tory party who kicked the whole thing off" I meant the people who forced Cameron to put a referendum in his 2015 manifesto. The point is that if Brexit does turn out as chaotic as it seems to be, it is because the interests of the Tory Party were put ahead of those of the country.

And no, I don't support another referendum: much as I would in principle like the decision to be reversed, I do realise that doing so now would likely cause far more problems than it solves.

[noel]

I think I'm seeing who "Oracle" is now. I think the clues are in Oracle's black and white portrayal of things that seem at odds with reality.

But that's fine: this is a safe space to air all real or made up opinions. Even ones like these.

[Oracle]

Thats not entirely true there are several different kinds of populism even in Europe. Many country populations, particularly youngsters are destitute precisely because of the unelected eurocrats of brussels, who are forcing austerity on them with the illadvised project called the euro. If you were one of the 40 percent youth unemployment in numerous southern states, to whom Brussels gives no hope or future, you too would rebel with such as five star, and elect those promising hope. That is populism born of desparation. I despair of remainers who turn a blind eye to the damage brussels is causing. In countries that really have austerity.

You will note even Varoufakis said at the time of Greek Crisis, the UK does not have austerity just the balancing of books. So It is rather different kind of populism in the UK. The communists and trots that run UK labour have fed a trillion pound pile of impossible promies. I do not criticise the young for voting for "More for me" although I state that none should have a vote before age 21 that have yet to contribute to taxation> It focusses the mind when it is your own money poured down socialist drains. Independent Group fortunately have made that less likely. In reality all MPs should have resigned the whip after the vote of confidence in corbyn until sanity was resumed. In that case it is the apparently educated foolish who have made such economic destruction a real possibility. That is populism born of Corbyns bare faced lies, to try to bring Cuba or venezuela here. Ideological populism. That also always brings hate.

There is also the "outbid on stupidity populism" You can see it also in pre collapse greece what happens when so called socialists outbid each other on the stupidity. A different kind completely For example where all retire at an impossible 50 and public sector railways cost so much an individual chauffer driven limo would have been cheaper than the network. The problem is the golden rule of economics catches back up. There is no free lunch. You cannot spend more than you earn unless it creates (not redistributes) revenue because all that happens is you borrow from the future, and sooner or later must pay the piper And in a fixed currency zone like the euro. Recovery is no longer possible.

But here it is sad but true that those who then have to belt tighten get vilified. From callaghan bankrupting britain, to Gordon brown overspending by milking a bubble not real income, and way overspending on tax credits for example. They alone count for 300-400 billion debt. Less is a harder message to sell than more. Itis too easy for the addictive spend too much to vote for spending more again, than pay back what they have already spent.

People old and young are sick and tired of the same old middle of the road politicians. Do NOWT and blame everyone.

That's why USA got Trump and main countrys in Europe are seeing extremist parties do well.

We follow the rest so don't be surprised when a shock happens.