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Thread: Farage NEW PM

  1. #81
    Super Moderator Derby Tup's Avatar
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    “So it is rather pointless trying to debate it“ is the most sensible thing posted here

    Opinion on this seems even more polarised than the traditional Left v Right and is anyone really going to change someone’s opinion with a biased article from a web-site with an obvious agenda and a lightly slung insult?

    Did you get out for a run?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derby Tup View Post
    “So it is rather pointless trying to debate it“ is the most sensible thing posted here

    Opinion on this seems even more polarised than the traditional Left v Right and is anyone really going to change someone’s opinion with a biased article from a web-site with an obvious agenda and a lightly slung insult?

    Did you get out for a run?
    Trouble is there are so many assumptions in Brexit debate repeated so often they have gained status of fact without actually being true! Where I do draw the line is being called racist, an inflammatory cheap shot made on these threads of brexiteers.

    On the more important issue , I am not sure an observer would have described it as "running"!

    But for both of us a run of any description is progress, your park run very impressive!
    Last edited by Oracle; 17-04-2019 at 08:23 AM.

  3. #83
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noel View Post
    Question: are there any data on how much tax immigrants pay on average?

    Oracles seems to be suggesting they are a net drain on the system. Is this true?
    It isn't a matter of whether they pay tax Noel, as everyone pays tax. You switch on a light bulb you pay energy tax, you buy a can of coke you pay sugar tax....
    If you want to look at this you have to consider net fiscal benefit, which is their tax contribution less their benefit and service usage.

    A House of Lords Select Committee report 10 years ago showed that the net benefit to the economy is marginal.

    Net immigration was shown to help GDP - more people, more economic activity - but have negligible effect on GDP per capita.

    However I think it's wrong to assess immigration purely in terms of the economics.

    But I think it should be a consideration when setting immigration policy, because if you can set it in a way that is economically positive for the economy, it helps make the case for migration for those that encourage it.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
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  4. #84
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    The UKIP 2015 Manifesto which is the last one for Farage, did not say it would get rid of overseas aid and overall it's not a bad manifesto - some bits in there for both left and right.
    It was well received, with the main criticism of UKIP not being about their manifesto, but whether among their marry band of space cadets, they had anyone credible who could deliver on it.

    That could be levelled at Tory, Labour and LibDem though based on recent evidence

    The 2015 UKIP manifesto said it would reduce the Overseas Aid budget.

    Currently we work to spend 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid and that aid has to be delivered in a way that meets the international definition as that is what we have legally committed to.

    I think we are the only major country doing this.

    That creates a problem. The efforts to help the Caribbean following hurricane Irma in 2017 did not qualify.

    If we haven't spent the money each year, we have to distribute what is left to such entities as The World Bank, UNICEF.... hence there is a tendency to spend on schemes that aren't well thought out.

    It's akin to the bonkers policy that we see when Local Authorities go out and spend their budget every March before the end of year.

    Whether you agree with the policy to reduce the budget or not, the current situation is a poorly thought out one and it should be reviewed and improved.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
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  5. #85
    Super Moderator Derby Tup's Avatar
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    The 2015 UKIP manifesto was ‘well recieved’ by who Witton? Self-styled ‘armchair political commentators’? Agreed folk would probably be more concerned about the people delivering it than what it said mind; assuming anyone went to the trouble of discovering it existed
    Last edited by Derby Tup; 17-04-2019 at 09:40 AM.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derby Tup View Post
    The 2015 UKIP manifesto was ‘well recieved’ by who Witton? Self-styled ‘armchair political commentators’? Agreed folk would probably be more concerned about the people delivering it than what it said mind; assuming anyone went to the trouble of discovering it existed
    ,
    Well received by 18 percent of the electorate I can imagine which is how UKIP polled at the time
    so it was not a niche following or just a few armchair commentators, i hasten to add I was not one of them.

    I accept the fact few read it. But then even labour apparatchiks got caught out on discussing the content of the trillion pound unicorn too. The rank and file would never have read it' So who actually reads the detail of any of them? So questioning who reads UKIP manifesto is an unfair test. Sad anorak that I am, I actually read corbyns 100 page lie, cover to cover. Which is why I am horrified

    Our foreign aid policy is anachronistic at best. Farage and Boris are right about that.
    Last edited by Oracle; 17-04-2019 at 10:19 AM.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derby Tup View Post
    The 2015 UKIP manifesto was ‘well recieved’ by who Witton? Self-styled ‘armchair political commentators’? Agreed folk would probably be more concerned about the people delivering it than what it said mind; assuming anyone went to the trouble of discovering it existed
    The Centre for Policy Studies and IFS from an economic stand point.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  8. #88
    Master noel's Avatar
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    Oracle, what single point are you making that you’d like me to respond to? If you can put it in one sentence (or one paragraph if it’s complicated) that might help.

    I’m glad we’ve as a group debunked the myth that immigrants are coming here to take advantage of our welfare system.

    Apologies Oracle if you weren’t arguing this. I think there were a few on here who were.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by noel View Post
    Oracle, what single point are you making that you’d like me to respond to? If you can put it in one sentence (or one paragraph if it’s complicated) that might help.

    I’m glad we’ve as a group debunked the myth that immigrants are coming here to take advantage of our welfare system.

    Apologies Oracle if you weren’t arguing this. I think there were a few on here who were.
    I see little point in continuing this.

    But in answer - The problem is - I never said it or even hinted at it Noel. And I am not aware I used the word benefit once. There are too many straw men mischaracterizations. In this case you seemingly assumed I held a stereotypical view. Consequence on benefits is a small minority view amongst brexiteers. But then in my observance a large proportion of remainers have a rose tinted ill informed view of EU, so problems in both camps.

    On other issues, I actually challenged you:

    I have argued the difference between asian and EU immigrants is controllability and observability. Asian migrants must apply, so we know how many. I do not accept your lemma that the size of the asian migrancy is such is makes the EU migrancy irrelevant, because the two are differnet in character. Because of free movement we have little idea how big EU numbers are and have no control whatsoever over them. That is not good with finite accomodation.

    I also see inter EU migrancy as a consequence of EU and euro dysfunction. We should not accept the symptom, EU should effect the cure.By accepting EU migrants we are damaging the states they come from.

    I have not said it here, another problem is "sending money home" which is a drain on our economy, much as those who earn a pension here, but spend it in costa del sol also cause a problem. And so on. The problem with EU, is there is not a balanced exchange of migration and it is hurting both states losing and gaining population.

    I only entered these threads to counter main misconceptions about the EU by using hard economic data. The biggest amongst them , is that EU single market and customs union are somehow necessary for growth. History proves the opposite. EU is opposed to free markets. And we do not need to be in EU to trade with it. Also that the EU is somehow a stable cooperative of nations. It isnt, it is run by a few states to the detriment of most because of the Euro, which is a fatal flaw that will cause implosion. On that I suspect remainers are in for a shock. Target 2 balances show how it is on its last legs.


    But I have made the points Noel. Little point in continuing.
    The sun is shining for once! So forums can take a back seat
    Last edited by Oracle; 17-04-2019 at 01:18 PM.

  10. #90
    Master noel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I see little point in continuing this.

    [six paragraphs of text]
    Is this how you have conversations in real life? Do you find people walk away before you’ve finished?

    Anyway, enjoy your run.

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