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Thread: Paid Rounds

  1. #41
    Senior Member CalFerguson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    A bit of a thread resurrection.

    In line with members' wishes we've now decided that paid/guided Rounds will no longer be acceptable for Club membership. The Club website has now been updated with the following:

    Over the last few years some companies have been advertising guided rounds to which there has been growing disquiet and opposition from the vast majority of members of the Club. The Club has existed since 1971: learning the round, helping on attempts and then doing your own Round takes effort, which is what gives membership of the Club value and makes the Club unique. It is the wishes of the Club’s members that this ethos and tradition continue.

    As of 1st January 2020, the Bob Graham Club will no longer ratify paid/guided rounds and those who choose to use professional services of companies offering guided rounds will no longer be eligible to join the Bob Graham Club.
    Great news
    http://calferguson.blogspot.co.uk/

    Calvin Ferguson - Blackburn Harriers & AC

  2. #42
    Master ba-ba's Avatar
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    any updated stats after the summer? A few strava/facebook pages I've breifly seen making me think there might have been quite a bit of an uptake this year - or people have a larger and wider network of friends than I imagined!
    Nic Barber. Downhill Dandy

  3. #43
    Master DrPatrickBarry's Avatar
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    For the right amount loads of people will be your friend.

  4. #44
    Master Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ba-ba View Post
    any updated stats after the summer? A few strava/facebook pages I've breifly seen making me think there might have been quite a bit of an uptake this year - or people have a larger and wider network of friends than I imagined!
    There were five paid for Rounds this year with two non-completions. A total of 120 successful Rounds, including those five, out of 214 registered attempts.
    Bob

    http://bobwightman.co.uk/run/bob_graham.php

    Without me you'd be one place nearer the back

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    A bit of a thread resurrection.

    In line with members' wishes we've now decided that paid/guided Rounds will no longer be acceptable for Club membership. The Club website has now been updated with the following:

    Over the last few years some companies have been advertising guided rounds to which there has been growing disquiet and opposition from the vast majority of members of the Club. The Club has existed since 1971: learning the round, helping on attempts and then doing your own Round takes effort, which is what gives membership of the Club value and makes the Club unique. It is the wishes of the Club’s members that this ethos and tradition continue.

    As of 1st January 2020, the Bob Graham Club will no longer ratify paid/guided rounds and those who choose to use professional services of companies offering guided rounds will no longer be eligible to join the Bob Graham Club.
    You do love your non sequiturs.

    The idea that " learning the round, helping on attempts, and doing your own round" Is somehow alternative to paid rounds is a non sequitur, it does not follow.. apples compared with oranges.

    Guiding paid rounds ( for which the guides have done all of the above)
    Using paid guides ( I will wager almost all the contenders have already done the above to some degree, and simply being outside the network because of geography or association gives constraints which are the reason to use paid guides,

    In converse some do the round with free help who simply cannot learn it or help because of geography, so fail your ethos test. Like kilian.

    So the ethos has sweet f/a to do with paid rounds or not. More than a few embers fail your ethos as you define it.

    Indeed I could but (will not on principle ) cite a number of members who took advantage of help on the round, lifted not a finger to help others , nor tried to learn the route at all, let alone properly. How do I know? I helped them round and was somewhat appalled at the lack of reciprocation, regretting having helped in at least 2 cases, Yet they are seemingly still eligible whilst not engaging the ethos you claim.

    The latest being kilian, who maybe in all your reckoning a nice chap, he probably is. he certainly didn't meet the criteria you just defined.
    The loose club of assorted helpers has turned out for other celebrities who had no prospect of meeting your ethos either, Indeed I turned out for one.

    The idea that as some kind of retribution that those who use paid guides then become ineligible to join , which appears to mean even if they then do it again with friends sometime later they are ineligible, The difference being what?

    So do you intend to check that all members have previously supported others to ensure your ethos is complied? You may be in for a surprise.

    A small minded decision of the kind that are stock In trade of blazers
    Rules for the sake of rules.
    The ruin of all amateur athletics. That gives athletics a bad name.

    Your club , your rules. But don't pretend they gave anything to do with ethos
    Last edited by Oracle; 03-10-2019 at 12:45 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    You do love your non sequiturs.

    The idea that " learning the round, helping on attempts, and doing your own round" Is somehow alternative to paid rounds is a non sequitur, it does not follow.. apples compared with oranges.

    Guiding paid rounds ( for which the guides have done all of the above)
    Using paid guides ( I will wager almost all the contenders have already done the above to some degree, and simply being outside the network because of geography or association gives constraints which are the reason to use paid guides,

    In converse some do the round with free help who simply cannot learn it or help because of geography, so fail your ethos test. Like kilian.

    So the ethos has sweet f/a to do with paid rounds or not. More than a few embers fail your ethos as you define it.

    Indeed I could but (will not on principle ) cite a number of members who took advantage of help on the round, lifted not a finger to help others , nor tried to learn the route at all, let alone properly. How do I know? I helped them round and was somewhat appalled at the lack of reciprocation, regretting having helped in at least 2 cases, Yet they are seemingly still eligible whilst not engaging the ethos you claim.

    The latest being kilian, who maybe in all your reckoning a nice chap, he probably is. he certainly didn't meet the criteria you just defined.
    The loose club of assorted helpers has turned out for other celebrities who had no prospect of meeting your ethos either, Indeed I turned out for one.

    The idea that as some kind of retribution that those who use paid guides then become ineligible to join , which appears to mean even if they then do it again with friends sometime later they are ineligible, The difference being what?

    So do you intend to check that all members have previously supported others to ensure your ethos is complied? You may be in for a surprise.

    A small minded decision of the kind that are stock In trade of blazers
    Rules for the sake of rules.
    The ruin of all amateur athletics. That gives athletics a bad name.

    Your club , your rules. But don't pretend they gave anything to do with ethos

    So really: gentlemen v players?
    Last edited by Graham Breeze; 03-10-2019 at 10:52 AM.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    So really: gentlemen v players?
    I am not sure: the problem I have is the justification given "ethos" does not match the solution: "ban paid rounds" for reasons I cite.
    Many rounds fail the ethos test which are not paid.

    I actuallly see this in the same light as numerous other disputes that have plagued amateur athletics over the years, broadly described as a turf war over "ownership". It has happened at the highest levels ending in two rival uk title championships, down to clubs arguing over right to host events and at all federation levels in between.

    One group set themselves up as the "true believers" resisting encroachment on what they see as "their turf" (and forgive me if this sounds critical Graham, but FRA refusing on occasion to list other peoples races is just that).

    If there were a lot of paid rounds (there are virtually none) they could argue it is hurting the ecology, which in extremis is back to front. If the only rounds were experienced guides, far less traffic would happen over the route by those learning to support it! THe guides already know it, so don't have to learn it multiple times.

    If the definition of BG completion were different by the paid organisations you could understand the reluctance to validate their rounds. (eg the arguments over what consitutes a valid hour record) But the rules are the same.

    If the "ethos" issue were actually pursued (show us proof you support, before we will allow your round) then maybe that would have a legitimacy. It doesnt. There are many rounds of people from abroad, doing a round never to return, and never learn the route or support anyone at all. So it is not about ethos either.

    I rest my case.

    Whether it is spoken or not, or even subconscious or not, the BG club has adopted "ownership" of the BG on control and completions, and has seen others getting involved in promoting the BG which is anathema to the BG club because they consider they own it. It is just another turf war, of the kind which has plagued athletics for years.

    Which yet again ends in pure spite , that those who do a paid round, then render themselves ineligible to become club members, having broken the "true faith, so are now shunned". That too is a feature of athletics turf disputes.

    Their club, their rules. But they cannot pretend that the reason matches the action taken. It is yet another small minded action by a small minded athletics committee who think they "own it". They dont. The are merely custodians of some records..

    As I pointed elsehwere. There is no problem it seemingly solves. And if there was a problem, it is nowhere justified that this is the best answer to solve that the problem. It is arbitrary.

    The question they should ask is "would bob graham have objected", or would he consider that getting round was the issue? Since the only answer to that can only be "dont know", because paid guides were the norm in the developing alpine mountaineering scene at his time so normal. So who knows if Bob would have objected to just the same in the UK?

    No first or subsequent ascent of a mountain, or mountains (I know of) was ever "invalidated" by using paid guides! So The club should allow all valid witnessed rounds if it were other than a turf war.
    Last edited by Oracle; 03-10-2019 at 12:06 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post

    ...and forgive me if this sounds critical Graham...
    Feel free. Nobody learns anything listening to themselves.

    (And now I have been criticised so often I must know so much!)
    Last edited by Graham Breeze; 03-10-2019 at 10:53 PM.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

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