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Thread: Paid Rounds

  1. #31
    Senior Member Chris K's Avatar
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    ''It will never be full'' - twice! Now that did make me laugh! I think you just need to witness a Bank Holiday weekend on the roads or try parking (legally) in Keswick on most fair weather weekends, or witness the rubbish left in remote locations. It is overfull already, I don't think there is a single SSSI in the Lake District that is classed better than 'fair, deteriorating'. Anyway the BG is small change in the great scheme of things, though the anti-clockwise route was a lot less obvious when I did mine in 1985...seems like yesterday...ish.
    A circular route mostly downhill

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris K View Post
    ''It will never be full'' - twice! Now that did make me laugh! I think you just need to witness a Bank Holiday weekend on the roads or try parking (legally) in Keswick on most fair weather weekends, or witness the rubbish left in remote locations. It is overfull already, I don't think there is a single SSSI in the Lake District that is classed better than 'fair, deteriorating'. Anyway the BG is small change in the great scheme of things, though the anti-clockwise route was a lot less obvious when I did mine in 1985...seems like yesterday...ish.
    sounds like a few prime tourist spots and towns are full (or very busy) on a few occasions a year.

    i would think that the businesses and communities welcome the business from an economic perspective. especially when so many towns and high streets across the UK are on their knees and dying. shame some (a minority of) people leave litter and behave anti-socially, but that will always be the case.

    in the view of many people it's a good thing that more people are able to and do enjoy leisure time in nature and places of natural beauty rather than stuck in towns, shopping centres and indoors.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    There's a lot of deflection (non)arguments there @Oracle.

    Whether someone is partly or wholly a sponsored athlete has nothing to do with paying someone to take you around the BGR. When I climbed the North Face of the Eiger many years ago I was on the dole. Are you suggesting that my ascent was state sponsored? After all they were paying my "wages".

    Kilian Jornet knew about the BGR from several years ago (at least) when Ben Abdelnoor of this parish had a chat with him and gave him a copy of the 42 Peaks booklet. There was a thread on here wondering when he'd attempt the Round and if his sponsors would even "allow" him to attempt it since it wasn't a race and didn't have the associated hullabaloo that is a feature of events like the TdMB that he was dominant in at the time. In subsequent communication between KJ and the club it was obvious that he had respect for the ethos of the club and traditions of the Round and that he only wanted to attempt the Round with those in mind. He arrived here with one of his running friends and only got the full local help when Rob Jebb decided it was too hot for his attempt at the record (RJ is already a club member - #2035) and offered his help. He wasn't simply "muled around" either, since he carried his own kit and food for the whole Round.

    As for KJ not helping others with their Round, who's to say he won't? It's an aspiration, not a requirement. I know Club Members who support lots of attempts and others who only ever did their Round with a group of mates and don't figure in any other attempt.

    I've no figures how how common existing members helping others on the Round is, it's actually very difficult to work out - as an example members #1580 and #1581 are both called Peter Murphy. This is not an accidental duplication, two different runners of the same name completed their Round on the same day though one went clockwise and the other anti-clockwise. If a "Peter Murphy" appears as a supporter on a ratification form which one do I mark it against? What happens if the Peter Murphy is a different one who isn't a member or becomes a member several years down the line? There are currently over 2200 members (some of whom are deceased) do I trawl back through all the records updating each one for every new applicant?

    Solo Rounds: neither I nor anyone in the committee has a problem with these, the Round is on public land after all. Since the inception of the Club it's been a requirement that your attempt be witnessed. Some people have a problem with that, others don't. I've received ratification forms with accompanying emails saying that they realise that being solo means no Club membership but it's just for the completeness of records and other similar forms with what amounts to "trust me I did it" attached.

    The "I don't know anyone", lack of connections, excuse doesn't hold water either. When I made my first attempt on the Round in 2004 these forums didn't exist, Facebook had only just started up in the States so that wasn't available either. I didn't know anyone in my running club who was interested so I asked for help on the UKClimbing forums and a couple of total strangers stepped forward to help. Goodness knows how people managed before the internet. Although I'm originally from the Lakes, I'm now a couple of hours' drive away so the logistics and costs of my reccying and attempts weren't dissimilar to those living in Manchester, West Yorkshire and the like.

    I'm not on Facebook but when the same posting as at the start of this thread was made on the BGR group page there was near unanimous support - there were only two (as of Easter) dissenting voices, both of whom are employed/associated with commercial concerns offering paid Rounds.

    The Round itself has very few "rules", basically start and finish at the Moot Hall and traverse the 42 tops on foot within a contiguous 24 hours. The Club currently just adds the requirement for that effort to be witnessed. The proposal is whether to limit that to voluntary support/witnessing.

    As a Club the Round has our name on it, any problems tend to land at our door whether they are associated with us or not, and we have to deal with it: a couple of years ago there was a Sunday Times journalist looking at problems with erosion in the Lakes and making a big deal about it - interest waned when it was pointed out that annual footfall on the Round was under 1000 when compared to 14 million day visits to the Lakes. We don't want to have a big problem to solve in the future when we are able to sort it out now. We can't stop commercial activity about the Round (maps, books, etc.) but we have a duty* to protect it for those to come.

    * "Duty" sounds a bit grand but I can't think of a better word.
    To me this fails the tests of any decision.
    1/ What is the problem you are trying to solve?
    2/ Does it need solving at all?
    3/ How does this proposal solve it? Is it the best way?
    It seems to be an action devoid of purpose. Removing paid support is not solving any obvious problem.


    As for detail: I answered most of those points along the way. I was supporting rounds a decade before you seemingly, when there was even less media infrastructure.

    The quality of who you get on Ukclimbing is variable. I have seen other peoples rounds hopelesslty destroyed by supporters with inadequate knowledge.

    Those who are connected in the lakes have a big advantage. Those who get long holidays an even bigger one. If someone wants to ensure support quality, or arrange at short notice to get such locals, why shouldnt they? The passage of a few pounds: why is it even the clubs business? Let alone of concern? They are hardly creaming big profits, or making everest type queues

    The bottom line: You just allowed a professional runner to bypass the ethos and gave him membership. (which I dont have a problem with) But now to object to professional supporters once you have allowed professional contenders is to me ridiculous!!

    You will never create a level playing field. The idea that "paid support" somehow unlevels the playing field is false, nor are there so many they distort numbers, In which case the only argument against paid supporters seems to be arbitrary: an attack on the individuals providing the support? Or socialist hatred of paid anything?.


    Arbitrary is the only word that fits. Since it fails to solve any apparent problem. It is what committees love, or as Humphrey in yes minister would put it "means without ends"
    Last edited by Oracle; 07-06-2019 at 04:48 PM.

  4. #34
    Master Bob's Avatar
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    Removing paid support might not be solving any current problem but is dealing with potential future problems laid out in my previous post. I can't foresee the future any better than anyone else but I (and the committee) can try and ensure that behaviour by the Club and contenders doesn't lead to future conflict.

    The first mention of a "level playing field" on this thread was by yourself (I checked), again a deflection argument.

    You seem obsessed with Kilian Jornet's round. He certainly didn't "bypass the ethos", in fact he tried his hardest to keep his attempt under the radar, much more so than many contenders. A far bigger concern to me was whether he'd solo the Round in a record time - under the Club rules it would be inadmissible for Club membership. The numbers of people at each road crossing during his round were small until Honister when there was a sudden increase which happened because someone unconnected with his attempt posted on social media that KJ was attempting the record. Thus the large number in Keswick to see him finish.

    I suspect he asked his sponsors not to announce the fact he was attempting the BGR, he may not even have told them. I don't know. I do know it's in contrast to some other athletes and their sponsors - we've been told of attempts and asked to keep quiet about it (I don't pass on details of any intended attempt BTW) only to find that the sponsor announces it on their website!

    Edit: Other than a couple of the usual post-round emails I've not had any contact with Kilian. I do know that he and Morgan Williams (the previous Club secretary) had an extended dialog over at least two or three years prior to him coming over here. From Morgan's summary of those it was clear that he had a respect for the Round and the ethos around it. If Morgan reads this he may care to elaborate.
    Last edited by Bob; 07-06-2019 at 06:39 PM.
    Bob

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    Without me you'd be one place nearer the back

  5. #35
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    It does not even solve a potential problem, e.g. Excessive wear to the route,
    And even if it did, you could wait for symptoms before unnecessary rules.

    As parting comment.
    You probably wonder my reason for interest: I spent my 20s , 30s and early 40s buried establishing businesses: hours that would make junior doctors feel lazy. Burned out before I got to 45.

    It didn't stop me running, but much of it was antisocial . And any form of racing was heavily constrained by schedule. I never did race when at my fittest. Nor did it stop me recceing BG ( you can do any time, it is one of the attractions) , or helping a dozen others succeed, and some , probably rather less fail.

    But in all that time there were only two or three days in almost a decade when I was both fit enough and could commit to a date for a round, and sadly on those few days, the supporters I knew were committed elsewhere. I was cash rich time poor, Had paid rounds been available I might have looked at that as an option, it might just have got me round. We will never know.

    It has nothing to do with ethos Bob, letting professionals run proves that. Another is asking for supporters right now, Nor creeping commerciality, or are you going to stop Harvey's or Pete blands from selling maps? Certainly nothing to do with use, the paid supporters are rarely used. And all those supporters love and respect the route , they would not do it otherwise. The rate of pay is only beer money. Not enough to make a business.


    In my view , It is just another meaningless , purposeless , small minded decision, that athletics committees love.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Removing paid support might not be solving any current problem but is dealing with potential future problems laid out in my previous post. I can't foresee the future any better than anyone else but I (and the committee) can try and ensure that behaviour by the Club and contenders doesn't lead to future conflict.

    The first mention of a "level playing field" on this thread was by yourself (I checked), again a deflection argument.

    You seem obsessed with Kilian Jornet's round. He certainly didn't "bypass the ethos", in fact he tried his hardest to keep his attempt under the radar, much more so than many contenders. A far bigger concern to me was whether he'd solo the Round in a record time - under the Club rules it would be inadmissible for Club membership. The numbers of people at each road crossing during his round were small until Honister when there was a sudden increase which happened because someone unconnected with his attempt posted on social media that KJ was attempting the record. Thus the large number in Keswick to see him finish.

    I suspect he asked his sponsors not to announce the fact he was attempting the BGR, he may not even have told them. I don't know. I do know it's in contrast to some other athletes and their sponsors - we've been told of attempts and asked to keep quiet about it (I don't pass on details of any intended attempt BTW) only to find that the sponsor announces it on their website!

    Edit: Other than a couple of the usual post-round emails I've not had any contact with Kilian. I do know that he and Morgan Williams (the previous Club secretary) had an extended dialog over at least two or three years prior to him coming over here. From Morgan's summary of those it was clear that he had a respect for the Round and the ethos around it. If Morgan reads this he may care to elaborate.
    Last edited by Oracle; 08-06-2019 at 03:17 PM.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Dave_Mole's Avatar
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    isn't there a pub somewhere you can go and bore peple in?
    ....it's all downhill from here.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Mole View Post
    isn't there a pub somewhere you can go and bore peple in?
    I get why someone with no interest in paid rounds would find posts about paid rounds boring.
    What I don't get is why someone with no interest in paid rounds , would be reading posts about paid rounds In Order to declare them boring???

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I get why someone with no interest in paid rounds would find posts about paid rounds boring.
    What I don't get is why someone with no interest in paid rounds , would be reading posts about paid rounds In Order to declare them boring???
    Oracle dear boy - you do have your moments that light up a dull day in Yorkshire .
    Last edited by Graham Breeze; 09-06-2019 at 10:03 AM.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  9. #39
    Senior Member Daletownrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Mole View Post
    isn't there a pub somewhere you can go and bore peple in?
    Like

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