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Thread: Paid Rounds

  1. #11
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    It is not as simple as that is it?

    Take Kilian who is sponsored (ie full time professional), he spends his life either training or racing. And whether or not he did, he certainly could have spent weeks receiing without any of the constraints of normal people.
    Is that really compatible with the Ethos you claim? He is a member and record holder.

    The ethos requires those who have their bags carried to carry bags for others. But that is not simple either for those who live far away or abroad. I will wager Killian never does his share, or perhaps not even any.

    Some have a group of massively experienced supporters who do it every week and are local. Others have the only ones they know, who are pretty much as oblivious as they are.

    Big advantage to former group. Route knowledge in clag does matter. And if they only way you can get it is buy it, why not: if it helps to level the playing field.
    Ive seen rounds destroyed beyond redemption even before great calva because of inadequate supporters.

    It seems to me it is another of these oversimplistic "feel good" rules in what is inevitably a murky world. There is no such thing as a level playing field. So why pretend there is? If supporter use a taxi they are using professional paid support. There are only shades of grey. If you have a paid physio patch you up either before or during. Ditto.

    Surely all that really matters is whether they got round witnessed under their own steam. That is the challenge. Some have one supporter. Some have a dozen.

    Amateur athletics got itself into a major mess when it started arguing the boundaries of what was professional or professional support. It was a mess that blighted Liz Mcolgans career, and destroyed the career of her coach.


    Quote Originally Posted by LocoAl View Post
    Fell running is so good partly because it is uncommercial compared to almost any other sport. Paying someone for the petrol they have spent is quite different from paying a company to guide you round a BGR. The club seem to be quite rightly keeping the BGR as uncommercial as is possible and realistic. if people want to pay to be guided round something let them stick to other sports/types of running etc.

    I live a fair way from the lakes and I was more than willing to do the BGR in the spirit of it. The whole experience was great, people paying to be guided round the BGR have missed the point and aren't doing a real BGR.
    Last edited by Oracle; 28-05-2019 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Chris K's Avatar
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    For a short while I had thought the Kilian attempt was not relative to the BGR, until I understood how it had come about through Martin Stone trying to replicate how Billy had done his round. It only happened when Rob and Carl dropped their own plans and provided the basis of support, specifically with no sponsor involvement. A bunch of fell runners supporting another exceptional athlete, but that's just my opinion.
    A circular route mostly downhill

  3. #13
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    Wow Oracle, I agree 100% with everything you said, but did not want to put it down as I expected to get my head bitten off. I wonder what is the difference between a paid round and something like the "Dark Peak Machine" that heads around each year. One could even argue that reliance on experienced navigators, either paid or, though a club etc. would reduce the footfall on the round, due to less reccing.
    Last edited by DrPatrickBarry; 29-05-2019 at 02:03 PM.

  4. #14
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    I do agree with some of what you say, I just think there is enough commercialism creeping into fell running and if it can be held off then it should be. Kilian didn't pay anyone, he was helped out by a team of fell runners who gave up their time.
    I also don't see why it should always be a level playing field- my attempt nearly foundered on leg 1 when my support crew cost me an hour (funnily enough from great calva to the end of leg one) but I managed to pull the time back. If I hadn't been able to though I would have been fine to accept it and just tried again albeit with a different leg 1 crew! I guess it comes down to how you see things- to me if people are paying to be dragged round the route it just becomes the same as everything else- currently the the lack of commercialism is part of the beauty of a BGR.
    Last edited by LocoAl; 29-05-2019 at 01:59 PM.

  5. #15
    Senior Member bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry View Post
    Wow Oracle, I agree 100% with everything you said, but did not want to put it down as I expected to get my head bitten off. I wonder what is the difference between a paid round and something like the "Dark Peak Machine" that heads around each year. One could even argue that reliance on experienced navigators, either paid or, though a club etc. would reduce the footfall on the round, due to less reccing.
    I believe the 'contenders' in the DPFR machine are expected to support other rounds before (or after) their own attempt and build up their own knowledge of the route and be capable of being self-sufficient if required.
    Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

  6. #16
    I'm very conflicted.
    I agree with the stance taken by the club, as I respect the ethos of the club 100%. But I also agree with almost everything Oracle said. My own gut instinct is that a true round is one where you are capable of nav'ing your own way round, and having people to guide in a paid or unpaid capacity is somewhat contrary to the spirit of the whole thing. I also happen to think having someone to help you with food/bags etc is ok. SO in that respect I am also partly 'anti' to the approach of something like the DP Machine which churns out successes as long as you can cover the ground in time. But a club effort is also a beautiful thing in many instances. You can't possibly legislate for all this and please everyone, i'm not sure I could even satisfy my own conflicted criteria!!!

  7. #17
    Member skipchris's Avatar
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    I respect the club for its principled clarification of its own rules of admission.

    I don’t see how "what-iffery" helps anyone. I’m sure Killian won’t be pacing anyone any time soon. He’s an exceptional case, and you can’t make rules for the majority of everyday cases which also account for every exception.

    If the club chooses to promote an overall ethos of community over commercialism, it isn’t required to prohibit the smallest financial transactions between Round participants. If it wasn’t a club ran by volunteers, I’m sure it could publish a long list of exactly what forms of cash transactions are and aren’t acceptable for membership, but it is, so it doesn’t.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipchris View Post
    I respect the club for its principled clarification of its own rules of admission.

    I don’t see how "what-iffery" helps anyone. I’m sure Killian won’t be pacing anyone any time soon. He’s an exceptional case, and you can’t make rules for the majority of everyday cases which also account for every exception.

    If the club chooses to promote an overall ethos of community over commercialism, it isn’t required to prohibit the smallest financial transactions between Round participants. If it wasn’t a club ran by volunteers, I’m sure it could publish a long list of exactly what forms of cash transactions are and aren’t acceptable for membership, but it is, so it doesn’t.
    But then those who use - or are forced to use - (semi) professional support are also exceptional cases. Just not exceptional runners. Why one exception the professional runner, not professional support?

    If kiliam ( as a professional ) now shows up to support Rob, is he barred as a professional supporter? It is all a complete nonsense.

    If any of the supporters are sponsored, they are to a degree professional.

    And even that is a misnomer. I wager none of the " professional supporters" do this as more than a small sideline and they do it for comparative pin money. Just like race result teams.
    I dislike the fact that fell racing is going same way, but it is what it is.. With paid ( so professional) race entry platforms and paid results: should those who charge for photographs be banished too?

    The discrimination against support is arbitrary. And will lead to more problems than solutions.
    Fell running went through this nonsense once with guide running. Doesn't need to go there again.
    Last edited by Oracle; 30-05-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  9. #19
    Master DrPatrickBarry's Avatar
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    When I think of the amount of money I spend on BG reccies and my two (failed) attempts in retrospect would it have been cheaper to hire a preofessional guide?

  10. #20
    Member skipchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Why one exception the professional runner, not professional support?
    It’s not clear what this sentence means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    If kiliam ( as a professional ) now shows up to support Rob, is he barred as a professional supporter?
    If Rob paid Killian money for his support, then the Club may refuse to ratify this round in the future. If Rob does not pay Killian, then the Club would have no problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    If any of the supporters are sponsored, they are to a degree professional.
    This is a true fact, but one tangential to candiates paying strangers for support.
    Perhaps just me, but I find these tangents confusing. My brain works a bit better when a conversation stays focused on one topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I dislike the fact that fell racing is going same way, but it is what it is.. With paid ( so professional) race entry platforms and paid results: should those who charge for photographs be banished too?
    Maybe, maybe not, but I don’t understand how this is relevant to BGR club candidates paying strangers for support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Fell running went through this nonsense once with guide running. Doesn't need to go there again.
    It’s not the broad sport of "fell running", it’s membership of the Bob Graham 24-hour club, a private club with a long-standing and published ethos.

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