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Thread: Paid Rounds

  1. #21
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    I do not like mixed ethics: in this case allowing professional runners who ignore the ethos of support, but not allowing professional supporters is nothing short of bonkers.

    It is arbitrary. Unnecessary. Vindictive. And achieves absolutely nothing for anyone. Other than making a committee "feel good" Situation normal in athletics committees generally. Does that make my position clear?

    It also stops a few potential completers from doing so who do not have the connections. So who is the winner from this?

    Athletics has been this way before, declaring some things professional others not to promote a warm fuzzy feeling in totally arbitrary fashion. Chariots of fire highlights the stupidity of banning professional support. Athletics got even worse from there before it got better. It never ends well.

    The problem we had competing with the USSR in the seventies they were paid full time by the state, but not paid prize money. So they were deemed OK as amateurs. So were the full time coaches.
    Just because they were not paid by event did not alter the fact they were paid.

    Our athletes who relied on payment of prizes, or coaches paid direct by athletes were deemed professional. And barred. Or restriced. It is all the same in another guise. It is possible to define the world so clarify what is paid support. It does not make it any more sensible.

    In the end all that matters did the person get round in the time, under own steam,witnessed or not?
    They are just as deserving as anyone else who did the same. WHoever was with them.

    If there was a problem to solve (take the pictures of the everest ridge with queueing because of commercialism) destroying the round because of paid supporters, that would need consideration on whether it is getting out of hand, although it would be hard to distinguish the pack from the same that dark peak send round! But these paid rounds are few and far between. So there is no problem to solve.


    Let somebody else have a view.

    Quote Originally Posted by skipchris View Post
    It’s not clear what this sentence means.



    If Rob paid Killian money for his support, then the Club may refuse to ratify this round in the future. If Rob does not pay Killian, then the Club would have no problem



    This is a true fact, but one tangential to candiates paying strangers for support.
    Perhaps just me, but I find these tangents confusing. My brain works a bit better when a conversation stays focused on one topic!



    Maybe, maybe not, but I don’t understand how this is relevant to BGR club candidates paying strangers for support.



    It’s not the broad sport of "fell running", it’s membership of the Bob Graham 24-hour club, a private club with a long-standing and published ethos.
    Last edited by Oracle; 30-05-2019 at 06:11 PM.

  2. #22
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    Didn't Groucho Marx say something along the lines of 'I don't want to belong to any club that will have as a member'?
    Therefore; if you want to do a BGR and pay people to help you to accomplish this, or (in my case - soonish) do a round solo without any fuss or fanfare (or witnesses), then so be it: well done you've done a BGR! If you want to join 'The Club' (which can and does dictate how they join and who its members are), then abide by the rules of admission by doing a witnessed, volunteer-supported round.
    I'll be happy knowing how I achieved my own accomplishments, yes I'm not a member of 'The Club', but I'm a bit anti-establishment anyway and that's ok with me.
    Simple.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by felltrumpet View Post
    Didn't Groucho Marx say something along the lines of 'I don't want to belong to any club that will have as a member'?
    Therefore; if you want to do a BGR and pay people to help you to accomplish this, or (in my case - soonish) do a round solo without any fuss or fanfare (or witnesses), then so be it: well done you've done a BGR! If you want to join 'The Club' (which can and does dictate how they join and who its members are), then abide by the rules of admission by doing a witnessed, volunteer-supported round.
    I'll be happy knowing how I achieved my own accomplishments, yes I'm not a member of 'The Club', but I'm a bit anti-establishment anyway and that's ok with me.
    Simple.
    Well said and good luck!
    I have often thought about a solo BGR myself and it being the most pure challenge in the Lakes.
    If I were to do it then that would definitely be my approach.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by felltrumpet View Post
    Didn't Groucho Marx say something along the lines of 'I don't want to belong to any club that will have as a member'?
    Therefore; if you want to do a BGR and pay people to help you to accomplish this, or (in my case - soonish) do a round solo without any fuss or fanfare (or witnesses), then so be it: well done you've done a BGR! If you want to join 'The Club' (which can and does dictate how they join and who its members are), then abide by the rules of admission by doing a witnessed, volunteer-supported round.
    I'll be happy knowing how I achieved my own accomplishments, yes I'm not a member of 'The Club', but I'm a bit anti-establishment anyway and that's ok with me.
    Simple.
    That is the purest way to do it solo / self supported just you and your surroundings and the knowledge that your achievement has had minimal impact on the environment good luck with it and remember when you have done it you won`t be able to avoid becoming a member of the virtual BGR club that never dictates rules never meets or has dinners in fact all members just carry on with there lives happy in the knowledge that they have achieved their aim in there way and mostly never have cause to justify themselves to anybody.
    Back on thread no money changes hands
    Last edited by JohnK; 31-05-2019 at 03:38 PM.
    The older I get the Faster I was

  5. #25
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    There's a lot of deflection (non)arguments there @Oracle.

    Whether someone is partly or wholly a sponsored athlete has nothing to do with paying someone to take you around the BGR. When I climbed the North Face of the Eiger many years ago I was on the dole. Are you suggesting that my ascent was state sponsored? After all they were paying my "wages".

    Kilian Jornet knew about the BGR from several years ago (at least) when Ben Abdelnoor of this parish had a chat with him and gave him a copy of the 42 Peaks booklet. There was a thread on here wondering when he'd attempt the Round and if his sponsors would even "allow" him to attempt it since it wasn't a race and didn't have the associated hullabaloo that is a feature of events like the TdMB that he was dominant in at the time. In subsequent communication between KJ and the club it was obvious that he had respect for the ethos of the club and traditions of the Round and that he only wanted to attempt the Round with those in mind. He arrived here with one of his running friends and only got the full local help when Rob Jebb decided it was too hot for his attempt at the record (RJ is already a club member - #2035) and offered his help. He wasn't simply "muled around" either, since he carried his own kit and food for the whole Round.

    As for KJ not helping others with their Round, who's to say he won't? It's an aspiration, not a requirement. I know Club Members who support lots of attempts and others who only ever did their Round with a group of mates and don't figure in any other attempt.

    I've no figures how how common existing members helping others on the Round is, it's actually very difficult to work out - as an example members #1580 and #1581 are both called Peter Murphy. This is not an accidental duplication, two different runners of the same name completed their Round on the same day though one went clockwise and the other anti-clockwise. If a "Peter Murphy" appears as a supporter on a ratification form which one do I mark it against? What happens if the Peter Murphy is a different one who isn't a member or becomes a member several years down the line? There are currently over 2200 members (some of whom are deceased) do I trawl back through all the records updating each one for every new applicant?

    Solo Rounds: neither I nor anyone in the committee has a problem with these, the Round is on public land after all. Since the inception of the Club it's been a requirement that your attempt be witnessed. Some people have a problem with that, others don't. I've received ratification forms with accompanying emails saying that they realise that being solo means no Club membership but it's just for the completeness of records and other similar forms with what amounts to "trust me I did it" attached.

    The "I don't know anyone", lack of connections, excuse doesn't hold water either. When I made my first attempt on the Round in 2004 these forums didn't exist, Facebook had only just started up in the States so that wasn't available either. I didn't know anyone in my running club who was interested so I asked for help on the UKClimbing forums and a couple of total strangers stepped forward to help. Goodness knows how people managed before the internet. Although I'm originally from the Lakes, I'm now a couple of hours' drive away so the logistics and costs of my reccying and attempts weren't dissimilar to those living in Manchester, West Yorkshire and the like.

    I'm not on Facebook but when the same posting as at the start of this thread was made on the BGR group page there was near unanimous support - there were only two (as of Easter) dissenting voices, both of whom are employed/associated with commercial concerns offering paid Rounds.

    The Round itself has very few "rules", basically start and finish at the Moot Hall and traverse the 42 tops on foot within a contiguous 24 hours. The Club currently just adds the requirement for that effort to be witnessed. The proposal is whether to limit that to voluntary support/witnessing.

    As a Club the Round has our name on it, any problems tend to land at our door whether they are associated with us or not, and we have to deal with it: a couple of years ago there was a Sunday Times journalist looking at problems with erosion in the Lakes and making a big deal about it - interest waned when it was pointed out that annual footfall on the Round was under 1000 when compared to 14 million day visits to the Lakes. We don't want to have a big problem to solve in the future when we are able to sort it out now. We can't stop commercial activity about the Round (maps, books, etc.) but we have a duty* to protect it for those to come.

    * "Duty" sounds a bit grand but I can't think of a better word.
    Bob

    http://bobwightman.co.uk/run/bob_graham.php

    Without me you'd be one place nearer the back

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    There's a lot of deflection (non)arguments there @Oracle.

    Whether someone is partly or wholly a sponsored athlete has nothing to do with paying someone to take you around the BGR. When I climbed the North Face of the Eiger many years ago I was on the dole. Are you suggesting that my ascent was state sponsored? After all they were paying my "wages".

    Kilian Jornet knew about the BGR from several years ago (at least) when Ben Abdelnoor of this parish had a chat with him and gave him a copy of the 42 Peaks booklet. There was a thread on here wondering when he'd attempt the Round and if his sponsors would even "allow" him to attempt it since it wasn't a race and didn't have the associated hullabaloo that is a feature of events like the TdMB that he was dominant in at the time. In subsequent communication between KJ and the club it was obvious that he had respect for the ethos of the club and traditions of the Round and that he only wanted to attempt the Round with those in mind. He arrived here with one of his running friends and only got the full local help when Rob Jebb decided it was too hot for his attempt at the record (RJ is already a club member - #2035) and offered his help. He wasn't simply "muled around" either, since he carried his own kit and food for the whole Round.

    As for KJ not helping others with their Round, who's to say he won't? It's an aspiration, not a requirement. I know Club Members who support lots of attempts and others who only ever did their Round with a group of mates and don't figure in any other attempt.

    I've no figures how how common existing members helping others on the Round is, it's actually very difficult to work out - as an example members #1580 and #1581 are both called Peter Murphy. This is not an accidental duplication, two different runners of the same name completed their Round on the same day though one went clockwise and the other anti-clockwise. If a "Peter Murphy" appears as a supporter on a ratification form which one do I mark it against? What happens if the Peter Murphy is a different one who isn't a member or becomes a member several years down the line? There are currently over 2200 members (some of whom are deceased) do I trawl back through all the records updating each one for every new applicant?

    Solo Rounds: neither I nor anyone in the committee has a problem with these, the Round is on public land after all. Since the inception of the Club it's been a requirement that your attempt be witnessed. Some people have a problem with that, others don't. I've received ratification forms with accompanying emails saying that they realise that being solo means no Club membership but it's just for the completeness of records and other similar forms with what amounts to "trust me I did it" attached.

    The "I don't know anyone", lack of connections, excuse doesn't hold water either. When I made my first attempt on the Round in 2004 these forums didn't exist, Facebook had only just started up in the States so that wasn't available either. I didn't know anyone in my running club who was interested so I asked for help on the UKClimbing forums and a couple of total strangers stepped forward to help. Goodness knows how people managed before the internet. Although I'm originally from the Lakes, I'm now a couple of hours' drive away so the logistics and costs of my reccying and attempts weren't dissimilar to those living in Manchester, West Yorkshire and the like.

    I'm not on Facebook but when the same posting as at the start of this thread was made on the BGR group page there was near unanimous support - there were only two (as of Easter) dissenting voices, both of whom are employed/associated with commercial concerns offering paid Rounds.

    The Round itself has very few "rules", basically start and finish at the Moot Hall and traverse the 42 tops on foot within a contiguous 24 hours. The Club currently just adds the requirement for that effort to be witnessed. The proposal is whether to limit that to voluntary support/witnessing.

    As a Club the Round has our name on it, any problems tend to land at our door whether they are associated with us or not, and we have to deal with it: a couple of years ago there was a Sunday Times journalist looking at problems with erosion in the Lakes and making a big deal about it - interest waned when it was pointed out that annual footfall on the Round was under 1000 when compared to 14 million day visits to the Lakes. We don't want to have a big problem to solve in the future when we are able to sort it out now. We can't stop commercial activity about the Round (maps, books, etc.) but we have a duty* to protect it for those to come.

    * "Duty" sounds a bit grand but I can't think of a better word.
    Bob

    It is so refreshingly good to see a post on this Forum that is actually about fell running as distinct from Down The Pub Drivel, and a nice use of contiguous as well.

    Come back soon!

    Graham
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  7. #27
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    Just for you Graham, just for you
    Bob

    http://bobwightman.co.uk/run/bob_graham.php

    Without me you'd be one place nearer the back

  8. #28
    Senior Member Chris K's Avatar
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    Out of interest to mention of erosion we're now at 19 million day visits per annum, I have posed the question to the NPA, 'At what point do you say the park is full?' In 1979/80 it was between 9 and 11 million..
    A circular route mostly downhill

  9. #29
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    It will never be full, they can just flag the entire BG route with those lovely (but unfortunately necessary) flag stones we have all over the pennines. It can sustain any number of people then.

  10. #30
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    It will never be full. The increase in footfall cannot be exponential, and limitations of geography; the road infrastructure will naturally curb the rise; and most people will still only visit a very small number of the towns and hills in the lakes rather - the obvious tourist spots .
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris K View Post
    Out of interest to mention of erosion we're now at 19 million day visits per annum, I have posed the question to the NPA, 'At what point do you say the park is full?' In 1979/80 it was between 9 and 11 million..

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