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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonykay View Post
    What I'm wondering is why Salvini isn't planning a referendum on whether Italy should leave the EU, since the country is clearly is clearly suffering so much as a result of EU mismanagement.
    Whatever happens will be painful. And that is the problem for politicians.
    Short term more pain for eventual relief is a hard concept to sell. There are no easy answers.

    So it is likely to take a collapse into capital controls forced by a confidence run on bonds, for italy to take the decision to start using the minibot renamed the lira to allow trade to flow again without euro..

    Salvini says he hopes to reform the EU from within, but without the monetary discipline the edifice will also collapse in a different way. The future is written in the existing history of previous european currency failures.


    But the only way that escapes the pain - eventually - is going to back to a lira so that the debts are reduced by exchange rate, and trade starts to balance. that is the safety valve that should work to push up a deutsche mark to make german import far too expensive. So boosting local manufacture of what was immported.
    You can imagine how rude the EU will be to anyone challenging their demand to control italy.

    There is no hope at present.
    Last edited by Oracle; 17-06-2019 at 03:17 PM.

  2. #42
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    Heathens I agree that the lord's is unelected upper chamber but at least people progress there having been British politicians or British citizens. They have British interests at heart. And let's not forget about the unseen hand on the tiller....the civil service. But also they have British interests at heart. Of course they are very anti Brexit but one has to question why. A change from the status quo would be a massive upheaval for them. I try to see beyond vested interests. Oracle has laid out some very compelling arguments admittedly wrapped up in alarmist and/or sensationalist language. But the core message rings true. The terms of membership had suffered mission creep to the point where reasonable people were starting to feel uncomfortable with the future direction.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeze View Post
    but one has to question why.
    I first started in the footwear industry as a trainee manager at Suttons, Bacup in 1983. I was given a taste of some of the management jobs and including a trip to Kensington Olympia for the big shoe fair.

    Buyers used to come along then, look at the range, and place hand written orders on their order pads that typically had a few carbon copies.

    These were huge companies, such as British Shoe Corporation part of Sears which had 3,000 shops at it's peak.

    We could come back from the fair with 500,000 pairs of orders in total, all on hand written orders or verbal orders which we confirmed in writing all done by a one buyer in each case.

    By the mid 00s, a decision to place an order for $5000 of a slipper from a factory in China required:

    Factory pre-approval by an independent auditor for technical and ethical issues before even a price quote could be given.
    Price agreed with buyer based on a estimate of quantity.
    Sample sealing by a QC Technician in advance of production.
    Merchandiser decides on purchase quantity and store placing, often differing significantly from buyer estimate leading to a renegotiation.
    A range of physical and chemical tests on a sample from bulk production prior to shipment.
    Production labels sent for pre shipment checks to ensure scanning correctly.

    The one buyer has now become a bloated team of buyer, assistant buyer, junior buyer, QC, merchandiser, assistant merchandiser....

    In around 2005 one of my old contacts became head footwear buyer at Littlewoods and I went to Liverpool to meet him for the first time in a few years.

    He introduced me to his team. There were around 6. I asked how he would manage dealing with his team having been used to making sole decisions. I asked why he would travel to trade fairs in Europe, suppliers in HKG, China, Vietnam, India.... when he had been used to working out of his Manchester office.....

    He said that this was the way the world was going. Empire building. Who was going to go in to a business that had 10 business class trips a year, all expenses paid to some pretty nice places where suppliers entertained.....
    In fact the "need" to do this was only going to grow as each newcomer sought to build their empire even more.

    Now this was happening in private sector companies. If the shareholders want to reverse this they can, and in fact some much leaner companies are coming along and in the late 00s when I was still in footwear I did meet a buyer who hardly left his office and worked alone - the first such buyer for a decade.

    It is just the same in the public sector. Except worse. It's worse because it is being done on the public purse.

    Look at the huge number of political jobs now, very well paid, outside the MPs that we had a generation ago.
    MEPs, Assembly Members, Special Advisors, Researchers and of course for the civil service the EU and devolved assemblies also opens up a whole raft of senior positions and job opportunities.

    So why? Well Turkey's don't vote for Xmas.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
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  4. #44
    Master DrPatrickBarry's Avatar
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    That is why they are failing so miserably in reworking the boundaries and reducing the number of MPs.

  5. #45
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    Theres the oddity Wheeze.
    I made all the arguments in 2005/6 for why the property bubble had to burst, how banks were supported by no more than vapour, and that Brown was asleep at the wheel - indeed encouraging the binge to get false tax receipts. At the time he should have been reigning in expenditure to cope with the storm to come, he was spending hand over fist: using his false property bubble to justify 30 billion in tax credits (he knowingly lied in saying it would only cost 500 million, but I digress...) Most of our nations debt comes from accumulated tax credits and interest that brown should never have paid, but can never be cancelled.

    I said then banks will crash, it is inevitable. People said "compelling arguments", dressed up in alarmist language, ie "bit of a problem but overcooked". They all went silent in 2007

    But right now italies problems are irretrievable, italian banks are sat on vapour WORSE than 2008. Even deutschebank is in trouble. Europe is on a knife edge. The chinese banks and australian banks are in a desparate state (or will be when the bubbles burst) the chinese banks and local provinces already are stuck in a doom loop.... The dollar will crash when it ceases to be used as the primary reserve. (which is argyably what all the wars were about: settlement of oil in dollars, regime change to any who threaten the hegemony) Sub prime car lending is every bit as bad as property was some years ago.
    There really is a catastrophe looming.

    Just because you look outside and you dont see lightning, does not mean it is safe if an asteroid is heading your way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeze View Post
    Heathens I agree that the lord's is unelected upper chamber but at least people progress there having been British politicians or British citizens. They have British interests at heart. And let's not forget about the unseen hand on the tiller....the civil service. But also they have British interests at heart. Of course they are very anti Brexit but one has to question why. A change from the status quo would be a massive upheaval for them. I try to see beyond vested interests. Oracle has laid out some very compelling arguments admittedly wrapped up in alarmist and/or sensationalist language. But the core message rings true. The terms of membership had suffered mission creep to the point where reasonable people were starting to feel uncomfortable with the future direction.
    Last edited by Oracle; 18-06-2019 at 10:57 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry View Post
    That is why they are failing so miserably in reworking the boundaries and reducing the number of MPs.
    I actually have some sympathy in this respect as an ex Rossendalian who's constituency was stuck with Darwen around 20 years ago in a boundary change and where you vote for the Rossendale MP, but Hyndburn Councillor in some wards.
    There is a problem with the Isle of White for example having 1 MP for 100,000 people and Western Isles with around half that number gets the same 1 vote in the Commons.

    Perhaps the MPs should be based on the local authority area and carry a weighted vote to represent the size of their area.

    Then we do not need boundary changes.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I actually have some sympathy in this respect as an ex Rossendalian who's constituency was stuck with Darwen around 20 years ago in a boundary change and where you vote for the Rossendale MP, but Hyndburn Councillor in some wards.
    There is a problem with the Isle of White for example having 1 MP for 100,000 people and Western Isles with around half that number gets the same 1 vote in the Commons.

    Perhaps the MPs should be based on the local authority area and carry a weighted vote to represent the size of their area.

    Then we do not need boundary changes.
    Meanwhile ireland gets twice as many seats per capita as the uk
    And Cyprus get 8 times as many,

    Luxembourg even more than that. Ten times as many, Well it would with juncker in charge, wouldn't it!

    If you want to see a rigged election, look at EU, not rossendale

    I don't know why they bother: it is rigged so the parliament has no say on anything useful anyway. The only competence it had is rubber stamping the next juncker. Even that is being stitched up as we speak. It had to be seen to be elected as a shamocracy, not democracy . It is not elected to be seen. The EU is run like Venezuela, the house has no say there, either.
    Last edited by Oracle; 18-06-2019 at 02:51 PM.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Dave_Mole's Avatar
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    Meanwhile ireland gets twice as many seats per capita as the uk
    it's calle degressive proportionality, and was voted for unanimously by all of the EU countries as it gives smaller nations a fairer voice. But then you're not really interested in facts, are you?
    ....it's all downhill from here.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Mole View Post
    it's calle degressive proportionality, and was voted for unanimously by all of the EU countries as it gives smaller nations a fairer voice. But then you're not really interested in facts, are you?
    Which incidentally is the same way FIFA oligarchs managed to keep a Powerbase and control over their fiefdom: by Throwing scraps to small countries to vote as the oligarchs wish, and so make sure they get reelected, and outvote the big players,

    The trouble is : Even EU oligarchs cannot stand up to the reich.
    The German finance minister has today ordered EU to go hard on Italy over the deficit, as no doubt they now will, when so ordered, And it will be fun watching Germany signing their own financial destruction. The problem with bullies is they don't know when to stop. The lack of restraint is always their downfall.

    If you want to see malintent at work, just see how EU has demanded the unreasonable just for Swiss exchange to trade in their markets. For which EU demands its citizens can invade: That is the right of EU citizens in Switzerland to be the same as any Swiss citizen.
    Eu does not respect sovereignty. Except it's own.

    It is time someone stood up to these bullies. Their unelected new empire has gone too far.

    But as Churchill said before the house finally realised it had to act, it did it too late.
    " when the situation was manageable, it was neglected , and Now it is thoroughly out of hand, we apply too late the remedies that might have effected a cure, want of foresight, lack of actio. When action might have been simple and effective,.,.etc"

    Said of the third reich, it is as appropriate to this. They want to annexe Northern Ireland. We must stop them.
    Last edited by Oracle; 18-06-2019 at 07:33 PM.

  10. #50
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Mole View Post
    it's calle degressive proportionality, and was voted for unanimously by all of the EU countries as it gives smaller nations a fairer voice. But then you're not really interested in facts, are you?
    Not really, as the EU Parliament is a bit of tokenism to give the pretence of democratic accountability. They can't create law or rules/regs, merely endorse or recommend an amendment.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

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