Life of Brian

[anthonykay]

I actually hope it’s a medieval beach towel and that the image is made from that brown Nivea oil that my old fella used to cook himself with in the 70’s

Rubbish! Don't you know what Turin's biggest industry is? The shroud is a seat cover from an old Fiat 500.

[Daletownrunner]

Well if that disposes of the Shroud of Turin that just leaves the others to deal with:

A number of claimed relics associated with Jesus have been displayed throughout the history of Christianity. While some individuals believe in the authenticity of Jesus relics, others doubt their validity. For instance, the sixteenth-century philosopher Erasmus wrote about the proliferation of relics, and the number of buildings that could be constructed from wooden relics claimed to be from the crucifixion cross of Jesus.[1] Similarly, at least thirty Holy Nails were venerated as relics across Europe in the early 20th century.[2] Part of the relics are included in the so-called Arma Christi ("Weapons of Christ"), or the Instruments of the Passion.
Some relics, such as remnants of the crown of thorns, receive only a modest number of pilgrims, while others, such as the Shroud of Turin, receive millions of pilgrims, including Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.[3]
As Christian teaching generally states that Christ was assumed into heaven corporeally, there are few bodily relics. A notable exception is the Holy Foreskin of Jesus.

You can’t knock the gruesomeness of a holy relic, if it hadn’t been chopped off somebody it had probably been inserted in them forcefully, everyone a biblical soap opera, which does make me lean towards the medieval relic factory theory ‘we’ve got the Templar’s coming next week, knock me up a few relics... and make ‘em hideous, they love hideous’.

[Oracle]

One day you will read all the evidence, That day you might also Learn about the shroud!.

The argument about false test results because of repairs raged 2 years before the dating of the shroud , because it is made has lots of repairs and patches

So arguments raged about multiple samples. The testers didnt listen, and so have failed the world.

The dates do not add up with any other evidence. So the daters got it wrong. But they were told they would before hand.

You trot out all the failed arguments like the shroud being forged consistent with the sudarium. The forensic pathology of the sudarium was unknown. As was any means for creating the mark on the shroud. And much of the other evidence doesnt fit the date either.

You are welcome to believe what you will. I prefer to study the evidence ALL of it and will believe a hypothesis that accounts for all of it. Which is why I said "if" there was a 5th century date it would have helped to explain the sudarium and iconography which way preceded mediaeval times.

There is still no evidence it is a fake (in the sense of other than a shroud of a dead body). It is not an artwork and no known means occures for forging it. Even now...

The RC date is an outlier.

The dates are AD 1260 - 1390


so, you've not only claimed to represent the whole of the Catholic church (more than once) and now count yourself amongst shroud "experts"?


So if you're going to create a fake you're going to *not* make it look like something else which is *supposed* to date from around the same time?


Dating a burnt patch is precisely what Rogers suggested in the article I linked to: "A second radiocarbon analysis should be very advisable, at least on the charred materials removed during the June-July 2002 restoration"



and so to that word. What do you mean by "genuine"? That it is the shroud which wrapped the body of "Christ" or just that it is older than 14th-15th century? Because your general imprecision with language (and concepts) makes it difficult to be certain.

[Dave_Mole]

one day you will realise that just repeating the same thing, over and over, doesn't make it true.

one day you might realise that nasty, bullying behaviour doesn't help your argument or how you are percieved.

one day you might actually seek help for you Messianic complex/Dunning-Kruger behaviour

one day you might realise that if you're going to convince people that you're right you might want to provide some kind of verifiable evidence.

but I don't see that day coming anytime soon.

[MattPo]

one day you will realise that just repeating the same thing, over and over, doesn't make it true.

one day you might realise that nasty, bullying behaviour doesn't help your argument or how you are percieved.

one day you might actually seek help for you Messianic complex/Dunning-Kruger behaviour

one day you might realise that if you're going to convince people that you're right you might want to provide some kind of verifiable evidence.

but I don't see that day coming anytime soon.

Dave, I don't know you but have developed a large respect for you. How you have managed to maintain a sane rational argument with the bigoted bully that its is Oracle is very commendable. Answering his Catholic bollox with peer reviewed science is admirable.
I'd like to buy you a pint, but live in the north, however my family live round Bredon Hill and I'll be down that way for Christmas. Do you live Malvern way - I'll leave money behind the bar of a local pub for you!
I would have answerd him but F**k off and D*e is not very convincing.
RESPECT.
Matt

[Witton Park]

.. the bigoted bully that its is Oracle ...

Yes

[Dave_Mole]

Yes

nice to see that you agree with MattPo, WP.

[Witton Park]

nice to see you called out MattPo for namecalling

[Dave_Mole]

nice to see you called out MattPo for namecalling

isn't there a playground somewhere you can go and play in?

[Wheeze]

Can I have my thread back??