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Thread: Coronavirus

  1. #2401
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Meanwhile in Belgium 398 Medical Doctors and 1360 medically trained health professional have signed an open letter displaying dangerous sceptisism about what is being done, no matter how ineffectual.

    After the initial panic surrounding covid-19, the objective facts now show a completely different picture – there is no medical justification for any emergency policy anymore.
    The current crisis management has become totally disproportionate and causes more damage than it does any good.
    We call for an end to all measures and ask for an immediate restoration of our normal democratic governance and legal structures and of all our civil liberties.

    https://docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  2. #2402
    Master Dave_Mole's Avatar
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    Ooh look, an "open letter" which anyone can sign (I just did, to see if I could. I'm a belgian doctor, you see). You'd have thought doctors would be capable of capitalising their own country.....

    C19 is just flu, testing is a waste of time, masks compromise oxygen intake....blah, blah usual stuff.

  3. #2403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    Meanwhile in Belgium 398 Medical Doctors and 1360 medically trained health professional have signed an open letter displaying dangerous sceptisism about what is being done, no matter how ineffectual.

    After the initial panic surrounding covid-19, the objective facts now show a completely different picture – there is no medical justification for any emergency policy anymore.
    The current crisis management has become totally disproportionate and causes more damage than it does any good.
    We call for an end to all measures and ask for an immediate restoration of our normal democratic governance and legal structures and of all our civil liberties.

    https://docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/
    Reading this I initially agreed with some of the points mate, however later in the document they suggest hydroxychloroquinone treatment has been proven to be successful and wearing a mask reduces your blood oxygen levels (the link given refers to prolonged wearing of n95 masks and a single case of a car crash presumed to have been caused by this ). Neither of these ideas seem to be generally supported by the medical and scientific communities. So on balance it seems to be yet another odd group with a libertarian agenda

  4. #2404
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    You beat me to it, must read faster in future ☺. Never thought about trying to sign up to test it's validity, too gullible and took it at face value.

  5. #2405
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaky View Post
    Reading this I initially agreed with some of the points mate, however later in the document they suggest hydroxychloroquinone treatment has been proven to be successful and wearing a mask reduces your blood oxygen levels (the link given refers to prolonged wearing of n95 masks and a single case of a car crash presumed to have been caused by this ). Neither of these ideas seem to be generally supported by the medical and scientific communities. So on balance it seems to be yet another odd group with a libertarian agenda
    The sections on Hippocratic Oath, Emergency law versus Human Rights and The role of the media and the official communication plan where the more interesting to me.
    They are angles less explored.
    Some of the other stuff is regularly popping up and I agree there are doubts about the hydroxychloroquinone treatment.
    It is clear to see that more and more questions are being asked which I think is a far better situation than just acquiescence.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  6. #2406
    Master Dave_Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaky View Post
    too gullible and took it at face value.
    like some others I could mention!

    Just a random one:
    "Researchers found up to 60% SARS-Cov-2 reactivity with CD4+T cells in a non-infected population, suggesting cross-reactivity with other cold (corona) viruses.Most people therefore already have a congenital or cross-immunity because they were already in contact with variants of the same virus".

    The paper linked to says no such thing!

    oh, go on:
    "...HCQ (hydroxychloroquine), zinc and AZT (azithromycin). Rapidly applied this therapy leads to recovery and often prevents hospitalisation. Hardly anyone has to die now".

    and it's funny how the Hippocratic Oath (there are several versions) states "I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism" and "I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure".

    And isn't it fun to see a vehement Brexiter support the use of the European Convention on Human Rights?

    This "letter" is a fake from start to finish..
    ....it's all downhill from here.

  7. #2407
    Master Dave_Mole's Avatar
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    Chria Whitty has just said that there are four things which can help prevent the spread of the virus:

    "First, as individuals, we can reduce our risk: hands, face, space.
    Second, we can isolate the virus. If people have symptoms, they must self-isolate. People who do this are helping to keep the virus out of circulation.
    Third, we must “break unnecessary links between households”. That means cutting contacts at work, and in social environments. But we cannot do this without significant downsides.
    Fourth, we can address the virus through science.

    If we do not change course, we will find ourselves in a very difficult situation".

    I imagine Johnson is going to follow this up quite soon.......
    ....it's all downhill from here.

  8. #2408
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    It would seem to me that, rather than the open letter referenced earlier, a much more interesting and useful read would be the article by Professor Devi Sridhar (chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh) published in today's Guardian.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ive-with-covid

    A few extracts:

    the only certainty about the year ahead is uncertainty.

    My main advice is to get outside as much as possible when seeing other people. [...] If an indoor setting is poorly ventilated, crowded and no one is wearing face coverings, it is best to avoid it.

    The real story of Covid-19 may not be just the lives lost, but the associated disability in younger working-age populations and the burden this places on the economy and health services.

    It is time for governments to plan several years ahead with an acknowledgment and honesty about the severity of this crisis. And for each of us to be patient and compassionate, and take things one day and one week at a time.

    (Note the use of the word 'may' in the third quotation.)

    It seems to me that the repeated reassurances from the government are helping to make the situation worse, rather than better. (As long as you wash your hands you can shake hands with anyone you want, we'll have cracked it in 12 weeks, Apple and Google have a lot to learn from the work we've done on our world-beating contact-tracing app, we'll be back to normal by Christmas, our testing system is the best in the world, 'our' vaccine will be the best and soonest available, etc.)

  9. #2409
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Valance just told us at the current rate we will have around 50k cases per day and 200 deaths per day by Mid October.



    Cast you mind back to say Feb 15th. Had they testing then, they would have picked up several thousand cases a day.
    The R rate was 4 (Imperial - introduced to the thread quite a while ago by Mike) cases were multiplying 4-fold within a 5 day period and we had no measures in place.

    They would have sat there and advised that if we proceed at this rate, by Mid March we could have around 14 million cases per day and a almost 1/3 of the UK population, perhaps 1/2 of the adult population, would have contracted COVID.

    Thanks heavens we put the measures in place Feb 23rd and didn't leave it until the end of March.

    In the meantime a non-Open letter that forumites won't be able to sign just gone to the Government and their advisors.

    4 authors, 20 odd signatories.
    Sikora, Heneghan, Gupta and 20+ colleagues across academia.
    https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/...72101463212032
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  10. #2410
    Master Dave_Mole's Avatar
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    And the contrast between that letter and the "belgian" one couldn't be greater.

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