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Thread: Coronavirus

  1. #3311
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fellbeast View Post
    I just googled false negative results and the 30% estimate is now looking out of date with something around 8% thought to be more likely now. On the flip side, false positive results are estimated to apply to something like 0.8% of tests.

    So the system, by those figures, identifies 10 times as many as falsely negative than it identifies as falsely positive.
    Stolly - My rough rule of thumb is that you and Noel can be so close to being on the same page as me, and then you blow it by making an assertion that doesn't stack up with what you've said even in the same post.

    First paragraph - OK let's accept that. The conclusion in paragraph 2 is misleading.

    Based on your 8% and 0.8% you would need 9% of people to be infected in the population before the False Negatives became statistically more significant than the False Positives.

    That's more than 10x the declared rate of infection even in the hottest of UK hotspots.

    Noel -
    "So, as we've said before in the current situation, false positives aren't as much of an issue as false negatives.

    However, if we get to a situation of very low infection rates, but very high levels of screening, false positives become (relatively) more important."

    First paragraph - you see it's wrong. The rate of false positives might be much lower, but it is a far more significant number because of the low prevalence of covid in the community.
    So to say FPs aren't as much of an issue is incorrect.

    When you are talking about lower rates and higher rates, we haven't even come anywhere near the higher rates at which false positives become less significant than false negatives.

    I'll say it again, because it doesn't seem to have registered.

    Taking Stolly's rates, you can go and test in any town in the UK and False Positives will place it at the top of the charts. It will be the hottest of hotspots in the UK with 800 cases per 100,000 population.

    So I'm against bad testing, which is what we have with the PCR test.

    The results of the testing have driven UK Government policy and world policy for 6 months.

    And the experts at SAGE and our Government act as if there is nothing to see here.
    Last edited by Witton Park; 18-11-2020 at 08:42 AM.
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  2. #3312
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    This is a timely chart from the ONS. Deaths this year vs the 5 year average. On that basis we are controlling the second wave better than the first, although deaths are now ticking up a bit

    Last edited by Fellbeast; 18-11-2020 at 09:18 AM.

  3. #3313
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    The excess deaths though still amount to the equivalent of three first days of the Somme

  4. #3314
    Quote Originally Posted by Fellbeast View Post
    The excess deaths though still amount to the equivalent of three first days of the Somme
    Mmmh. Is that what might be called the "nuclear argument"?
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  5. #3315
    Quote Originally Posted by Fellbeast View Post
    This is a timely chart from the ONS. Deaths this year vs the 5 year average. On that basis we are controlling the second wave better than the first, although deaths are now ticking up a bit

    Yes it is illustrative - although in several of the 5 years used to produce the average the bars would be similarly higher than the average and possibly there was a year where - apart from the huge peaks in April /May - a similar chart for an individual "bad flu year" would show a similar one year pattern not vastly different to 2020?
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  6. #3316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    You started it with the 30% False negative

    So the cases were the lowest for 2 weeks.

    As for the deaths, people die, 11,812 in England and Wales last week declared, week 46.

    It's extraordinary that when it happened in 2015 and 2018 from flu, we didn't hear a dicky-bird.

    https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/ur...ths-last-year/
    We have been through the excess winter deaths story - most are not due to flu.

    From Chris Giles, Economics Editor, FT:

    "We should recognise that Covid-19 is linked to around 75,000 UK deaths since mid March, not the wholly fictious government number of 52,147.

    @BBCNews
    and others should stop using that figure. The fact it is written down daily on a government website doesn't make it true."

  7. #3317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T View Post
    The fact it is written down daily on a government website doesn't make it true."
    I agree
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  8. #3318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    Yes it is illustrative - although in several of the 5 years used to produce the average the bars would be similarly higher than the average and possibly there was a year where - apart from the huge peaks in April /May - a similar chart for an individual "bad flu year" would show a similar one year pattern not vastly different to 2020?
    spot on Graham.
    2018 was worse than 2020.

    and also where the excess deaths are occurring needs to be considered.

    They aren't happening in hospital.

    They are happening at home.
    Richard Taylor
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  9. #3319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    You started it with the 30% False negative

    So the cases were the lowest for 2 weeks.

    As for the deaths, people die, 11,812 in England and Wales last week declared, week 46.

    It's extraordinary that when it happened in 2015 and 2018 from flu, we didn't hear a dicky-bird.

    https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/ur...ths-last-year/
    Probably a good time to compare how the actual figures are doing against the four "scenarios" that were presented on 31st October as part of the justification for lockdown in England.

    Seven day average figures to 17th November:

    University of Warwick = 541
    University of Cambridge/PHE = 2,409
    Imperial College London = 890
    London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine 701

    See Data to accompany slides presented by Chief Scientific Advisor
    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...1-october-2020

    Actual for England by reporting date = 354

    So actual figures much lower than the most optimistic scenario.

  10. #3320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    Yes it is illustrative - although in several of the 5 years used to produce the average the bars would be similarly higher than the average and possibly there was a year where - apart from the huge peaks in April /May - a similar chart for an individual "bad flu year" would show a similar one year pattern not vastly different to 2020?
    Graham there’s a huge whopping hole in that argument - they are the excess deaths taking into account all of the lockdowns and restrictions imposed since the end of March. You know March when the excess deaths hadn’t even taken off on the chart. You do realise that the figures would now be astronomical without all of the actions taken don’t you? And that our NHS would be trashed?

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