I don't think the Nightingale's were operational early enough to take the first cases Stagger.
BTW. Have you heard Max Boyces coronavirus poem " Just The Tide Went Out" as it is worth a listen.
I'd post it on here if I knew how to!
I don't think the Nightingale's were operational early enough to take the first cases Stagger.
BTW. Have you heard Max Boyces coronavirus poem " Just The Tide Went Out" as it is worth a listen.
I'd post it on here if I knew how to!
Visibility good except in Hill Fog
It is my understanding that the Nightingale Hospitals are not quite hi-tec enough to take the really ill Covid patients, so those were going to end up in ordinary hospitals anyway - so separating Covid and non Covid patients was not going to be possible. The Nightingales are overflow, either for ongoing active care, or for palliation. And the patients need to be accompanied by staff from the patient's hospital, and to meet quite tight criteria if for active care - arterial line, central line etc.Originally Posted by Stagger
The last thing the Government wanted was people dying because the NHS was overwhelmed. Deaths in the process of acquiring herd immunity - called not fully suppressing the curve - were initially felt to be acceptable.
Last edited by Mike T; 01-05-2020 at 06:55 AM.
Pure speculation as are Belgium numbers. Nobody can control with speculation. It needs something measurable in present not hindsight.
Using the FT non methodology , all countries would have to throw a dart in a board to uprate Their case numbers too. How do you control with numbers from a random number generator?
Some of the press coming from Belgium has seen their MikeT s complaining about their methodology saying that too few are properly verified, many were circumstantial not proven causal. There is no right answer: the distinction is philosophical not scientific. How many patients die with covid or because of covid? Camels and straws. When titanic sank, several bulkheads had overflowed. It is academic which one sank it, it was the combination.
The government needs a reliable measure for relative numbers.
The Reality of the number of cases is also underestimated by a factor of ten or more.
It would not matter what the government did. Part of the medical community would grumble.
England is still the densest population in Europe other than micro states. Belgium second of lesser states.
As for Ambleside, I just citd that as example of country side generally, the vitriolic rhetoric coming from many residents about covidiots is a disgrace. The standing order on second homes was wrong.
I notice The first question fielded yestErday by Boris was concerned resident from Cornwall telling Boris not allow tourists back in case it gave her extra risk.
Hidden subtext “ I’m allright jack. I have a guaranteed income regardless of COVID, so all that matters is keeping me safe. I don’t give a toss if half of my neighbour have no income whose solvency is reliant on some level tourist trade, they can starve for all I care”
Selfish b!tch was my thought when I heard her.
There is an obvious moral hazard with COVID.
The entire public sector gets paid whether or not they work. It is too easy to stay at home. For that reason all public sector salaries should have been cut to help pay for covid, so they too had a vested interest in declaring all clear.
As a result all sorts of facilities are shut that simply should not be. I could list many but take city dumps. Net result they “ self isolate “ in massive numbers because they can, not because they should.
It reminds me of the ( not insignificant) sheet ice problem a few years ago in January. Broadly: all who got paid regardless , whether they work or not, decided it was far too dangerous to go into work, so all the schools for example shut completely stuffing the parents forced to stay with kids.
All those reliant on getting to my house in order to get paid, from milkmen , delivery drivers and self employed tradesmen ( working here at that time) , all made it without problem. Clearly a moral hazard.
The schools should in my view not be shut either for covid, because of downside on parents forced to look after kids, so unnecessarily shutting the economy. I do not think many are taking that problem seriously enough , and the knock on effect to such as pensioners, including the government not taking it seriously enough. But then they too will get paid regardless.
Last edited by Oracle; 01-05-2020 at 09:53 AM.
Would have been hard to use them during the initial influx of patients, unless hospitals were overflowing. Even nursing staff have to become acquainted with where everything is, how it works and how the disease itself operates. Also what other equipment may be needed there and stocks, it all sort of makes sense in the long term plans.
I'm still convinced that the next step will be to open the Nightingales to new arrivals, have a dedicated staff there and reopen the NHS hospitals again for regular treatments - hopefully keeping the virus away.
Don't roll with a pig in poo. You get covered in poo and the pig likes it.
I read an article yesterday that said there is no reported case of a child passing coronavirus to an adult.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...idence-review/
"No child has been found to have passed coronavirus to an adult, a review of evidence in partnership with the Royal College of Paediatricians has found.
Major studies into the impact of Covid-19 on young children show it is likely that they "do not play a significant role" in spreading the virus and are significantly less likely to become infected than adults.
While experts have said more evidence is needed, they note that there has not been a single case of a child under 10 transmitting the virus even in contact tracing carried out by the World Health Organisation (WHO) in January and February."
The case it mentions here is fascinating.
"Among the evidence is a study of a nine-year-old British boy who contracted coronavirus in a French Alps but did not pass it on despite having contact with more than 170 people at three schools.
The boy, among the cases linked to Steve Walsh, the first Briton to test positive, also had influenza and a common cold which he passed to both of his siblings – but neither picked up Covid-19."
My sister has Chron's disease and is therefore in one on the vulnerable groups of people required to shield themselves. She is terrified of the schools reopening and her 10 year old son picking up the virus and passing it on to her. If the above is true, then it would appear she would have less need to worry. There would be little or no risk if primary schools at least reopened. Still, as the article makes clear, more evidence is required.
This has been refuted by a Paediatrician in a twitter thread - something about the "no child" bit being selectively quoted and the single paper it is related to being unsatisfactory in some respects - though having said that he agrees that children don't seem to be significant spreaders compared to adults. I will try to find the thread.
Alasdair Munro: " First, this news headline is wrong
They read our excellent review, and took a quote from a single article (joint WHO/China commission) out of our entire review for the headline
Children almost certainly DO transmit COVID-19"
Children with inflammatory bowel disease seem quite safe:
Results:
Eight PIBD children had COVID-19 globally, all with mild infection without needing hospitalization despite treatment with immunomodulators and/or biologics. No cases have been reported in China and South Korea but biologic treatment has been delayed in 79 children, of whom 17 (22%) had exacerbation of their IBD. Among the Porto group members, face-to-face appointments were often replaced by remote consultations but almost all did not change current IBD treatment. Ten guidance points for clinicians caring for PIBD patients in epidemic areas have been endorsed with consensus rate of 92-100%.
Conclusions:
Preliminary data for PIBD patients during COVID-19 outbreak are reassuring. Standard IBD treatments including biologics should continue at present through the pandemic, especially in children who generally have more severe IBD course on one hand, and milder SARS-CoV-2 infection on the other.
As to adults, not sure.
Last edited by Mike T; 01-05-2020 at 12:28 PM.
I strongly suspect that the concept of the Nightingale hospitals was only dreamed up after the virus hit. The initial moves were all about comandeering the private sector facilities to help. Since the Nightingale units got built the private sector facilities have sat idle. Would be interested to know the truth!
I'm sure the plan is to use the Nightingales to keep the hospitals covid free zones. But of course it takes time to source, train and activate the staff you need to embrace the extra capacity.
Funny how the number of deaths was so important in the briefings when they were relatively low, now that they are grim we are told they cannot be interpreted.
