Coronavirus

[jackd]

Many think we do properly fund, but I'd consider looking at some of these Northern European models if you would consider moving to their style of health system, which isn't based on the NHS.

The Northern European systems are all mixed. They don't get spooked by private healthcare, insurance based systems, and I know plenty of right of centre people politically that would welcome us considering a move to systems like German, Swiss, Swedish, Norwegian... healthcare funding and structure.

The constant resistance is mindboggling to me.

But anyone who discusses such a consideration gets the US system chucked back at them. I don't know anyone advocating it as an example for us to follow.

Yes, I'm aware they have mixed systems, as we now have in some respects. My reference to the N European countries was with regard to their socially democratic policies that result in fairer societies.

Plenty of evidence that the NHS is underfunded when compared to most countries in Europe, despite what many think.

[Witton Park]

Yes, I'm aware they have mixed systems, as we now have in some respects. My reference to the N European countries was with regard to their socially democratic policies that result in fairer societies.

Plenty of evidence that the NHS is underfunded when compared to most countries in Europe, despite what many think.

There are problems of course making comparisons, because what is classed as health care? Do you roll in elements of social care? Do you count the private expenditure in the UK in the calculation or just the govt expenditure?

and the opinion of a fairer society is a judgement call. There's a lot goes in to assessing fairness, and I'd rather live in the UK than any of the Northern European options as I think we have a fairer system here.

It seems many Europeans also agree, as more come to the UK than go the other way.

But where we can, we should look where there seem to be better outcomes and learn from that.

[Graham Breeze]

The point I was trying to make is that lateral thinking is required

Indeed.

I take my mother for regular hospital treatment. The regularity is important. Four weeks ago (ie in the "midst of the crisis") the hospital rang my mother and told her they were making arrangements for social distancing, etc and she should keep her appointment. She (we) did.

Where there is a will there is a way and, unlike some organisations that come to mind, the NHS is trying to find it.

[Oracle]

The health case was borderline. The economic and education case is and was a disaster by shutting schools. So the right decision was a no brainier. Self isolating resulted in low staffing levels which forced the governments hand. Read the news in march. A developing story leading to closure.

In war time the schools and transport and other services continued as a matter of public pride and principle. Britain will not be beaten.
Khan deciding to shut TFL was about transport workers unions as always screwing everyone else. What’s new? Transport unions have routinely stuck two fingers up at the general public. It is why monopolies must never exist. It is why tube and train drivers are paid double comparative jobs.

School closure has damaged the economy and the education of a generation. If all of you told the unions schools are staying open , the government would not have argued. The wrong question was asked: not “what is the maximum we can operate keeping teachers safe.” But “what is the best we can do to protect the staff,and others on the basis education must not be interrupted.” As it is we Have a dysfunctional mess.

The entire crisis has been overegged. Two percent of the U.K. work in nhs. That’s 700-800 deaths. Pro Rafa, but nothing like it in actual deaths, The number of nhs deaths demonstrates no significant or not much additional risk by front line staff. Presumably because by the time they get to hospital many are no longer infectious.

But all of you are missing the point.

I am not “ knocking the public sector“ generally.

1/ I am attacking the government response: that public sector are paying not a penny in reduced wages even for furloughed staff. They should be. This is a financial calamity, but only private sector are paying for it.

Furloughed private sector are given 80 percent up to a limit. Businesses are Only offered loans, some not even that. It is futile pretending low margin businesses like airlines can ever recover the loss. Certainly not when foreign airlines are given billions in other countries, and many are facing unfair competition because of chapter 11. Branson has done wonders to get Virgin Atlantic to survive. He has been subsidising it tens of millions a year. He should have been Given a Grant for the damage government covid Decisions did to his business. I despair of the rhetoric about bilkionaires: their wealth was in shares of now defunct businesses, not cash. Who does it help to hand that business to other countries?

2/ also the lack of government action on pensions.

Ever since brown decided to destroy private sector pensions with his idiot monetary policy ( and his bubble), which kept government borrowing cost low, but destroyed saving rates, public sector pensions are no longer affordable They cost too much. Brown even made business pay for his government raping pensions funds. Check out annuity rates. The Trillion and growing debt of these schemes is a demographic time bomb. But it is the moral hazard. Government defends them because MPs are the beneficiaries of the same schemes.

Mp pensions Cost so much it is more than any tax they will ever pay. They are the best tax dodgers of all.

3/ hmrc view of the Benefit value of the schemes is risible. If I get a free mars bar I’m expected to declare it at market prove. But the “ at cost” which isn’t even cost multiplier used to turn pension return into value is a bad joke! I can’t buy the pension many public sector have. It would far exceed the limit allowable for me to buy it!

I want the same rules for all.
I’m not against early retirement: I did it.
But I paid every penny for it.

3/ where I do attack the public sector is where they screw the schemes.
Most doctors, teachers and nurses early retire. It is outrageou.

A teacher retiring at 60 on a salary of say 40k compared to age 65 on a pension of 20k
Is not only costing 100k of greater pension, also 50k less in payments to scheme.
How and when do they pay the 150k? They don’t.

The pension at market rate should be 40 percent less.
That pension at annuity rates with the lock guarantees costs Close to a million to people in private sector.
When did they pay for that?

If I try to pay in 150k to a pension scheme in a year to make up, my scheme I get supertaxed on it!
But by using fantasy math, no such restrictions occur on public sector.

If I put ( taxed money) anywhere else like property, I am attacked for doing that too.

I can’t even buy a doctors pension at ANY price out of tax relieved money. They should certainly not be allowed to retire early simply because they canmot add to an already greedy pension based on fantasy math.


Nurses take the piss even more. Returning as contractors Whilst already on pension,
and in general selling training I paid for back to the NHS at contractor rates.

Our own fire brigade took turns with a new chief every couple of years. So they can all screw the pensions further. Police and firefighter schemes and retirement ages are ridiculous.

I have no problem with public sector.

I do have a problem with routinely screwing the system and the lack of parity with private sector who pay for it all.

By the way. Your earlier comments on QE: who got the money, seem to show you have no idea what it is.

I’ll reply in kind if you don’t mind.

1 – Of course, but not all bugs put you, or a vulnerable member of your family, in an icu on a ventilator.

2- The case for closure was put by the scientists advising the government, not the unions.

3 -Teachers did not decide ‘parents have to look after their own kids’. See No 2 above – the government closed the schools and told people to stay at home. I’d rather be back at work, but that doesn’t fit with what you like to believe. Why have you raised my ‘consideration of others who want to go into work’. I show consideration for others daily in my work and through my outlook on life. You seem to be suggesting I have no consideration for others "selfish is the word". Here's another two: Ad Hominem.

4 – I will continue to take advice from my union, who also want as quick a return to work as I do, when the scientific advice says it is the right time to do so. In fact, we are preparing for a phased return as are many colleagues in other schools. ‘lefty trouble makers’ – really?

Snow and ice? Your anecdote says nothing about the issue and the reasons for closing in such circumstances. Heads & l.e.a’s decide when to close and it’s out of fear of being sued if a kid slips and breaks something. We don’t choose to stay off – we are required to go in if possible, and it often is, even if the kids are off.

Public sector attitudes losing us the war? Do you need a good lie down? That would make Johnson our Churchill. You’re right, we’d have no chance.

As for my aside about the Cayman Islands, you fail to address my point about how the public sector contribute to the economy and its not a case of private = good / public = bad.

As I posted earlier, a modern diverse economy cannot function without either, and both contribute to the economy. Indeed, the private sector regulary benefits from the largesse of the government in terms of grants, research funding, lobbying, contracts etc not to mention infrastructure, the legislation that benefits them and having a healthy educated workforce available. Whom, incidentally some choose to pay a minimum wage to thanks to the government subsidising the payroll bill through the use of universal credit.

Which brings me back to the point of me getting involved in this thread. You seem to repeatedly suggest that the public sector contribute nothing and that the private sector is footing the bill. Indeed that the public sector are the problem in some way.

Again, I repeat - It’s the government who are funding the support for businesses. The government who are paying furloughed workers. When the time to comes to repay it all, the public sector will no doubt be doing their bit through another round of austerity. Although this time it will be at the hands of some of the politicians who helped pen that rather frightening polemic ‘Britannia Unchained’. It’ll be austerity on steroids, but without the fun factor.

Finally, teachers’ pensions. You have presented another fallacious argument. We were told about the unaffordability 10 years ago (and that’s debatable). That’s why they were reformed. We now pay more in, get less out and those who are on the new scheme will be going at 65 at the moment.

One thing we can agree on. The sooner we are all back at work the better.

Anyway, I’ve logged off for the day and It’s brightened up. I’m off up the Whinlatter fells for an hour or two. I’ll have to start posting in the daily exercise thread next.

[brummievet]

I’ll no doubt be branded as uncaring and heartless. So again, you have my sympathies.

I don’t think you are uncaring at all. It’s just my experiences.

[Oracle]

I'm probably not the only one sick and tired of listening to criticism based entirely on hindsight.

Too right.

[Oracle]

But there’s the problem.
Covid isn’t going away, it is the new reality.
There won’t be a vaccine anytime soon.
It kills very few of working age, and most of those are compromised.

So all need to get on with it.
Do obvious things that assist, like washing hands, but only in the context of what is possible in life goes on.
The college can’t close or get wider corridors.

Union responses to this are ridiculous.
Covid is not a special workplace hazard, it is everywhere.
It should not be treated as one.

I work at a college and even with 16year olds and older. The building is not structurally made for the current guidelines.

Corridors are not wide enough, the workshop spaces are too confined. PPE is currently available but shared. Tools and equipment are shared.

There are approximately 120 different students use just our welding facilities weekly.

I fail to see how staff and students can be keep to reccomended guidance.

Risk assessment is all well and good but unless you have a very good knowledge of the risks and hazards it would be extremely had to write an assessment.

[Witton Park]

Covid isn’t going away

what makes you think that? SARS did.

[Oracle]

what makes you think that? SARS did.

SARS had much lower transmissibility , and good fortune helped.

Covid is far more endemic, by a factor of hundreds or thousands. The confusion over symptoms and assymptomatic carriers made it endemic before it was even recognised as a problem.

It is not going away after months.Brazil is on the way up not down.

Schools cannot wait till it is “ unconditionally safe”. It Is years, not weeks.

[jackd]

Hello Oracle,

QE – plenty of evidence that the QE following the crash led to a reallocation of resources by redistributing the money created to those who were already asset rich. Lots of pieces on line about it from the FT to the Spectator – take your pick. People with assets don’t really need more money.Perhaps you don't know as much about it as you think.

Lots of your other points I agree with (bet you didn’t expect that).

Public sector pensions? Yes, I’d agree they are better for your average employee than private these days.

People screwing the system? Yes, that happens in the public sector. Small beer compared to the money squirrelled away offshore in the private sector though.

School closures, as part of the overall lock down, yes that’s damaging the economy, as well as other things like businesses being told to stop trading.

Entire crisis overegged? We’ll never know. Is it better to be where we are now than suffer what happened in parts of Italy? Hindsight – that thing you get just after you need it.

You have called a few times for parity. A synonym for parity is equality (I bet you knew that). Another thing we agree on. There should be more parity in society, you are absolutely correct.

People relying on foodbanks would like a bit more parity too. As would zero-hour, low paid workers who have to top up their wages with UC to survive.

It doesn’t have to be achieved by a race to the bottom though. In the 6th richest country in the world, there should be enough money out there to try and give us all a fairer deal. Better pensions, better wages, a better health service, better job security, no need for food banks. Sadly, with the CV crisis, a fairer society is now even more unlikely. There will be plenty of money made out of it though but it won’t ‘trickle down’ to people who need it. Rees Moggs’ investment firm has been advising its clients on how to make ‘super normal returns’ off the back of the current market upheavals. That’s a nice thought.

Pie in the sky, wishful thinking, unaffordable! (the asset rich will tell us), but we have to start somewhere.
So there you go, I’m a ‘lefty trouble maker’. Yet here you are calling for equality. It’s a funny old world.