Page 2 of 15 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 150

Thread: Transgender

  1. #11
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Teesdale
    Posts
    2,754
    Perhaps the question of inclusion or not should be asked of the women (biological) whether they would like to include 'trans-women' in their sport?

    It seems to be women (non-trans - Jeeez isn't life so friggin' complicated in the liberal West)who have to have this question directed at their sport and affecting their competitive opportunities.

    Does anyone know of reverse situations (although theoretically possible), with men having to decide if they want to accept trans-men?

    It would also be interested to hear from any women members of this forum or the female fellrunning community, about their opinions, although I expect this might be equally divided!
    Am Yisrael Chai

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    709
    I think Crossfit as a sport, which my younger daughter now does full on, has allowed transgender, previously men, to enter the Crossfit games as women. They do have a testosterone level requirement though that has to have been met at least 12 months before competing and be still in place at the competition. I have no idea what that limit is but presumably its a way go gauging whether there's a potential advantage or not?

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    709
    And Mossdog I'm not sure there are nowadays any women still remaining on the forum - they were scared off by <naming no names> yonks ago

  4. #14
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Teesdale
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Fellbeast View Post
    And Mossdog I'm not sure there are nowadays any women still remaining on the forum - they were scared off by <naming no names> yonks ago
    I doubt it Stolly. The ladies...damn it, I mean women....I know ain't scared of nuttin' I think they're just too busy getting on with their real lives, not that I'm daring to claim I know, or indeed don't know, what they might, or indeed might not, be doing and any underlying motivations, either way what so ever- phew!
    Am Yisrael Chai

  5. #15
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Teesdale
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Fellbeast View Post
    I think Crossfit as a sport, which my younger daughter now does full on, has allowed transgender, previously men, to enter the Crossfit games as women. They do have a testosterone level requirement though that has to have been met at least 12 months before competing and be still in place at the competition. I have no idea what that limit is but presumably its a way go gauging whether there's a potential advantage or not?
    Hey, that's interesting. First thoughts though, is I feel uncomfortable with the testosterone testing issue . I am mindful of the disgraceful treatment by sporting authorities of Caster Semenya. SHE was, and is, being treated abominably by the sporting world. https://apnews.com/article/543c78d94...1f31e88c1f8e6y as a WOMAN in a way that trans-women appear to avoid. Warped misogyny again?
    Am Yisrael Chai

  6. #16
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Teesdale
    Posts
    2,754
    Am Yisrael Chai

  7. #17
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    8,793
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonykay View Post
    Are you aware that there was a somewhat tragic case relating to this issue involving a fell runner? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jeska
    I selected Lauren for Lancashire when I was on the County Committee. It's while ago now, I think twice for fell and once for the Inters Cross Country.
    I gave her a lift to heh Inters Fell up near Moffat, must be 10 years ago now.

    I first heard of the issue at a Cross Country League meeting around 2006/7. I was attending as a club rep and someone raised the issue but it was made clear by the league officials that Lauren was female, the end.
    I'd never come across the issue until then.

    I accepted that and it was only when the tragic attack happened that I really considered it again.

    Lauren clearly gained advantage. She gained international vests, which cost others and she also gained county vests that cost others, as well as taking race wins and titles.

    So in that respect, it is wrong.

    I can't see any legitimate way other than treating trans as a seperate category, much as we do for wheelchair athletes who compete in road races.

    I suppose the issue then is one of personal privacy. No easy answer to this.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  8. #18
    Master Hank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lancaster
    Posts
    1,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    Lauren clearly gained advantage. She gained international vests, which cost others and she also gained county vests that cost others, as well as taking race wins and titles.

    So in that respect, it is wrong.
    I’m not sure it’s that black and white in terms of it being right or “wrong” as she’s a woman who competed in women’s races. You could argue she had an advantage as her sex at birth was male, and you could argue that advantage is unfair, and I guess that’s the nub of the OP’s question.

    It’s such a complex discussion as it mixes sport, science, fairness, identity politics, gender issues, socio-cultural issues, traditions, minorities, ethics…

    Some (possibly not totally coherent) thoughts:

    1) There’s lots of discussion at the moment around women and performance in marathon (and longer) distance events i.e. they may be more physiologically suited to these than men. So the reason the top men are quicker than the top women right now might not be down to their physical characteristics, rather socio-cultural factors that mean women are not as far along the curve of their potential as men. It could be the case that a cisgender woman is at a physical advantage over a woman whose sex at birth was male, and indeed a cisgender male. This might be the case for other sports too. As others have said, this matter should be considered on a sport by sport basis, and backed up scientific studies that can accurately describe any differences.

    2) Over the years we’ll increasingly see trans athletes who made their transition before puberty and therefore, in the case of male transitioning to female, won’t have developed the physical characteristics that some would claim give them an advantage.

    3) My guess is that in 10, 20, 30, however many years time gender fluidity will be such that the traditional ‘mens’ and ‘womens’ categorisation of sports will go and be replaced with more nuanced ways of organising fair competition. As WP says, there’s no easy answer, and I don’t think there ever will be if we stick with simple labels that are probably no longer fit for purpose.
    Geoff Clarke

  9. #19
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Blackburn
    Posts
    8,793
    Quote Originally Posted by Hank View Post
    I’m not sure it’s that black and white in terms of it being right or “wrong” as she’s a woman who competed in women’s races. You could argue she had an advantage as her sex at birth was male, and you could argue that advantage is unfair, and I guess that’s the nub of the OP’s question.

    It’s such a complex discussion as it mixes sport, science, fairness, identity politics, gender issues, socio-cultural issues, traditions, minorities, ethics…

    Some (possibly not totally coherent) thoughts:

    1) There’s lots of discussion at the moment around women and performance in marathon (and longer) distance events i.e. they may be more physiologically suited to these than men. So the reason the top men are quicker than the top women right now might not be down to their physical characteristics, rather socio-cultural factors that mean women are not as far along the curve of their potential as men. It could be the case that a cisgender woman is at a physical advantage over a woman whose sex at birth was male, and indeed a cisgender male. This might be the case for other sports too. As others have said, this matter should be considered on a sport by sport basis, and backed up scientific studies that can accurately describe any differences.

    2) Over the years we’ll increasingly see trans athletes who made their transition before puberty and therefore, in the case of male transitioning to female, won’t have developed the physical characteristics that some would claim give them an advantage.

    3) My guess is that in 10, 20, 30, however many years time gender fluidity will be such that the traditional ‘mens’ and ‘womens’ categorisation of sports will go and be replaced with more nuanced ways of organising fair competition. As WP says, there’s no easy answer, and I don’t think there ever will be if we stick with simple labels that are probably no longer fit for purpose.
    I don't accept she was a woman competing in women's races. I was told she was initially. She was a man who went through transition. A trans woman.

    On point 1, when you say a cisgender woman, you mean a woman I assume. Women might be able to out perform men in certain sporting disciplines. They probably can now, for example in gymnastics where some of the disciplines are not just about pure power, but more about power to weight ratio and agility.
    It partly depends on what the criteria are for the performance.

    As far as point 2 goes, I think there are moves to end that practise and not before time.

    If we get to point 3 we'll be in a right mess.
    Last edited by Witton Park; 16-10-2020 at 01:44 PM.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  10. #20
    Master Hank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lancaster
    Posts
    1,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I don't accept she was a woman competing in women's races. I was told she was initially. She was a man who went through transition. A trans woman.

    On point 1, when you say a cisgender woman, you mean a woman I assume. Women might be able to out perform men in certain sporting disciplines. They probably can now, for example in gymnastics where some of the disciplines are not just about pure power, but more about power to weight ratio and agility.
    It partly depends on what the criteria are for the performance.

    As far as point 2 goes, I think there are moves to end that practise and not before time.

    If we get to point 3 we'll be in a right mess.
    Ahh, a Harry Potter fan I see! Let's just say I respectfully disagree with everything in your post (apart from the gymnastics bit). Re. point 2, there's an excellent Louis Theroux doc on iPlayer called 'Transgender Kids'. I'd recommend a watch. It definitely shifted my thinking on that issue.
    Geoff Clarke

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •