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Thread: Chinese Disaster Ultra Marathon

  1. #21
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
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    Sometimes we need to revert to the traditional, truly tried and tested. IE Ron Hill (RIP) tracksters, Smelly Helly (the itchy type) and a Buffalo windshirt...oh and wool balaclava of choice. Sorted! Well, at least better than wet wipes
    Am Yisrael Chai

  2. #22
    Master Hank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonykay View Post
    Something that hasn't been mentioned is thermal base layers (Helly Hansen Lifa or similar) as useful protection against cold weather.

    I remember one fell race a few years ago, held in October in average temperatures for the time of year, with intermittent rain. For some reason I didn't wear a base layer, just a long-sleeved T-shirt and a waterproof (with taped seams). I was fine all the way round, but as I stood around chatting after the race, I suddenly noticed how cold I was feeling. I had gone over on my ankle during the race; if that had immobilised me, I might have been in serious trouble, whereas with a base layer I would have cooled down much more slowly.
    For sure, there's a big difference between a club vest with a superlight waterproof and a substantial long-sleeved baselayer and decent weight waterproof. I'm surprised more events don't specify a warm layer in required kit.
    Geoff Clarke

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hank View Post

    I do wonder what the FRA’s minimum kit list is designed to do. Anyone immobilised and off route in severe wet and windy weather is not going to survive for very long with only waterproofs, hat and gloves to put on.
    I suggest what it will do is:

    - ensure you stay dryer and warmer than someone running almost naked, assuming you are intelligent enough to put it on

    - and so help you stay rationale in the navigational decisions that you may have to make

    - and help you run rather than stumble and shuffle along, cold, shivering and depressed and possibly hypothermic.

    The most important aspect of surviving in a fell race in extremis is to stay on the route and to do that you need to be calm and thinking rationally, and that is a lot easier if you are warm and dry. The five classic deaths from hypothermia in fell races in England + Wales were all off-route when found dead. (And so was Chris Smith, the international mountain runner, who died last October in Perthshire).

    On the spectrum of fell runner attitudes: at one extreme there are the majority who believe that nothing bad will happen to them because it never has; and then there are those who never quibble about carrying kit because they have experienced having to ponder if this was their last day alive.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  4. #24
    Master PeteS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    On the spectrum of fell runner attitudes: at one extreme there are the majority who believe that nothing bad will happen to them because it never has; and then there are those who never quibble about carrying kit because they have experienced having to ponder if this was their last day alive.
    Well I'm definitely in the second group but have to agree that the mandatory kit would not be sufficient in extreme cases so I also carry an emergency bivvy bag.
    Pete Shakespeare - U/A

    Going downhill fast

  5. #25
    Master Hank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    I suggest what it will do is:

    - ensure you stay dryer and warmer than someone running almost naked, assuming you are intelligent enough to put it on

    - and so help you stay rationale in the navigational decisions that you may have to make

    - and help you run rather than stumble and shuffle along, cold, shivering and depressed and possibly hypothermic.
    I agree and in the overwhelming majority of cases that will be sufficient to avoid the immobile, off-route worst case scenarios. Nonetheless, personally I think it's not quite right that the minimum necessary kit evidently would be not be enough to protect someone who got in to serious difficulty. Not a criticism of the FRA as they're trying to find a balance and my sense (possibly incorrectly) is that there's a desire among at least some members to keep kit to a minimum, and we're all encouraged to make our own choices in terms of additional kit. I'd be happy to see survival bag and warm layer added to the "minimum" list.
    Geoff Clarke

  6. #26
    I think part of the problem is a lack of understanding about how much (or in reality how little) protection the minimum mandatory kit would provide in an emergency - this is then compounded by decisions made on that basis - ie to carry on or even to start in the false belief that the kit will keep them safe and, if not exactly warm,at least alive and functioning.
    I have to disagree to a certain extent with the suggestion to stay on the route - I don't think leaving the route in and of itself is the problem. It might be very appropriate and sensible to drop down to a lower level and return via the valley (or by taxi!) than to carry on. The problem as I see it is leaving that decision until it's too late and the runner, probably compromised by hypothermia and exhaustion no longer has the endurance to make it safely down and perhaps making it between checkpoints so others are possibly unaware of your intentions.
    Last edited by Mark G; 25-05-2021 at 04:49 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hank View Post
    I agree and in the overwhelming majority of cases that will be sufficient to avoid the immobile, off-route worst case scenarios. Nonetheless, personally I think it's not quite right that the minimum necessary kit evidently would be not be enough to protect someone who got in to serious difficulty. Not a criticism of the FRA as they're trying to find a balance and my sense (possibly incorrectly) is that there's a desire among at least some members to keep kit to a minimum, and we're all encouraged to make our own choices in terms of additional kit. I'd be happy to see survival bag and warm layer added to the "minimum" list.
    Well I've written about this before but when fell racing "started" there was no FRA kit requirement and what has developed has usually been in reaction to the deaths I mentioned above. A death makes it easier to bring about change. Not least because a Coroner's words carry legal weight.

    Any prior-Inquest inertia has not necessarily been because of a reactionary FRA Committee (who are mostly fell runners) but because the FRA cannot impose rules that Race Organisers (who are mostly fell runners or ex-fell runners) or competitors will not accept.

    I own and may have carried a survival bag but if ROs will not accept that, say, survival bags are "compulsory" and will not support kit checks, and implement remedial action for runners,... etc it doesn't matter what the FRA Committee thinks or says.

    The members of the FRA Committee are elected every year and if they lose touch with what ROs and competitors feel is "right" then they will be replaced by others who claim to better represent fell runners.
    Last edited by Graham Breeze; 25-05-2021 at 04:55 PM.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark G View Post
    The Life Scientific, R4 this morning is going to be about exposure and hypothermia. From the trailer it.might be primarily about cold water immersion but likely to be of interest.
    A friend who is a keen cold water swimmer recently had an episode of AF, and, looking online to see if there was any connection between the two, I stumbled across and was reading an interesting article in the Guardian featuring Mike Tipton - and who was on BBC R4 - The Life Scientific - at the same time? Mike Tipton!

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...y-broken-heart
    Last edited by Mike T; 25-05-2021 at 07:44 PM.

  9. #29
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Breeze View Post
    I suggest what it will do is:

    - ensure you stay dryer and warmer than someone running almost naked, assuming you are intelligent enough to put it on

    - and so help you stay rationale in the navigational decisions that you may have to make

    - and help you run rather than stumble and shuffle along, cold, shivering and depressed and possibly hypothermic.

    The most important aspect of surviving in a fell race in extremis is to stay on the route and to do that you need to be calm and thinking rationally, and that is a lot easier if you are warm and dry. The five classic deaths from hypothermia in fell races in England + Wales were all off-route when found dead. (And so was Chris Smith, the international mountain runner, who died last October in Perthshire).

    On the spectrum of fell runner attitudes: at one extreme there are the majority who believe that nothing bad will happen to them because it never has; and then there are those who never quibble about carrying kit because they have experienced having to ponder if this was their last day alive.
    I'm pondering (and it has no practical purpose whatsoever regarding solutions, just idle curiosity) on whether those who take up fellrunning through the fellwalking,climbing, cycling and other outdoor activities route, are more inclined to carry a better level of survival kit than those who have become fell runners primarily as an upgraded from their previous road running.

    Poor naked wretches, ....
    That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm,
    How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
    Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you
    From seasons such as these?
    Am Yisrael Chai

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark G View Post
    I think part of the problem is a lack of understanding about how much (or in reality how little) protection the minimum mandatory kit would provide in an emergency - this is then compounded by decisions made on that basis - ie to carry on or even to start in the false belief that the kit will keep them safe and, if not exactly warm,at least alive and functioning.

    I have to disagree to a certain extent with the suggestion to stay on the route - I don't think leaving the route in and of itself is the problem. It might be very appropriate and sensible to drop down to a lower level and return via the valley (or by taxi!) than to carry on. The problem as I see it is leaving that decision until it's too late and the runner, probably compromised by hypothermia and exhaustion no longer has the endurance to make it safely down and perhaps making it between checkpoints so others are possibly unaware of your intentions.
    Well the Forum is not really suitable for subtle debate but I accept your points and I have twice (in 1300 fell races!) dropped down out of foul weather to a road valley having decided that was the safest thing to do, and once retraced my steps along the race route to the start.

    But it is valid to say that if you go missing rescuers will start looking along the race route and true that none of the five classic fatalities were found on the race route.

    Your first point is quite profound. You could plot the sequence of events leading to a death from decisions made before one even leaves home - what kit one puts in the car, then take to the line, then the decision to start, when to put the "full" kit on, if to turn back or continue etc. Single, small decisions that compound and can result in a tragedy.
    Last edited by Graham Breeze; 25-05-2021 at 05:26 PM.
    "...as dry as the Atacama desert".

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