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Thread: Climate: The Movie

  1. #41
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonykay View Post
    Ah, so you agree with the point that I was making, and which you didn't include in your quote, Mossdog: no government has enacted any laws dictating what citizens can eat, how many children they can have, where and how they can travel, or what goods they can buy, on the basis of the climate emergency. There has certainly been advice, even pressure, on governments to adopt such policies, but as the Guardian article makes clear, there has been very little take-up of that advice by governments (contrary to your original allegation).


    I thought you said that you were a scientist. Why do you reject as a scare story any scientific research that doesn't agree with your prejudices? And in any case, what is there to be scared about in the story about the earth's rotation slowing?

    You're missing the point I was attempting to make, which is probably down to my poor grammar or explanation, rather than you being deliberately obtuse. I've listing a few of the manny bonkers 'scare stories, not because i don't believe some of them might have an element of truth, but because they represent a whole host of 'alarmist' messages, meant to nudge/scare/unsettle people into clambering for more action against the alleged 'crisis'. Yes, I agree, there isn't anything to be hugely worried about regarding changes in the earth's rotation, it's likely benign too, but if you explore the headlines across various sites on that issue alone, you can readily see how the media has sensationalised this to varying degrees.

    Let's return to the Government control issues, and your sense that this is all benign - nothing to see here folks.

    Have a looks at this. https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...74873/default/

    HOUSE OF LORDS Environment and Climate Change Committee HL Paper 64
    1st Report of Session 2022–23
    In our hands:behaviour change for climate and environmental goals

    "The Government should provide clarity to individuals about the changes we need to make, in how we travel,
    what we eat and buy, and how we use energy at home, and should articulate
    the many co-benefits to health and wellbeing of taking those steps." (All good so far...)

    Behavioural science (nudge, nudge - my addition) evidence and best practice show that a combination of policy levers, including regulation and fiscal incentives,(ie. tax the proles until they comply) must be used by Government, alongside clear communication..."

    "Businesses are in a position to enable behaviour change through increasing the affordability and availability of greener products and services and engaging customers and employees, but need direction from government (Oh dear, some top-down do as we tell you or else creeping in (remember ecocide!))"

    BINGO....

    "Lessons can be learned from both successful and unsuccessful behaviour change interventions in other policy areas. Most notably, the widespread behaviour change brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic. We recognise that the changes demanded by the pandemic were seen as a short-term response to a short-term emergency, nonetheless it will be a major missed opportunity if the Government does not seize the chance to evaluate behaviour change interventions implemented during the pandemic and apply lessons learned.

    "Swift action to rectify the approach is required".

    Let's just recall what some of those policies and 'actions' were. Draconian, overnight, imposed laws that forced people to stay indoors for weeks on end, with a brief 1 hour period, for exercise, but only near their home. Police action for anyone, for example, who wanted to sit on a park bench, for too long, and take a coffee with a friend. Obligatory wearing of masks, even when the Government knew this was complete bunkum. The banning, under pain of arrest, for anyone who wanted to visit and spend the final hours of a relative's life, to share and comfort them; banning of public attended funerals; the destruction of children's education by banning them from attending school for long periods - aside from damaging their mental health; the closing of churches and other places of public social assembly, leaving people lonely and scared. The abandonment of many cancer patients so that now we have a waiting list for NHS operations of 7 million on the waiting list, and a further 2 million 'shadow' patients on the waiting list to get on the waiting list; etc. All orchestrated for the public good to combat 'the crisis'.

    And look, we're being primed for another, must-act now crisis.

    No surprise that the most oppressive laws were enthusiastically enacted by Labour in Wales and the SNP in Scotland, including such life-saving actions as banning the sale of books (in Lockdown!) and baby clothing in supermarkets, while sending police to patrol virtually empty train carriages checking where free citizens were journeying. Guess who is bragging about forming the next Government.

    But, perhaps you're right. This apparent ratcheting up of the rhetoric, setting the scene for another impending global 'crisis' won't impose similar restrictions on people's lives and liberties and degrade their life-style. And if it does' it'll all be for good, sound reasons - the scientists agree 99.9 %

    “No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”

    ― George Orwell, Animal Farm
    Am Yisrael Chai

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    ULEZ Zones.
    Introduced to protect people's health, following evidence of increases in asthma and other respiratory problems. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...y-we-have-ulez. Basically the same motivation as banning smoking in public buildings, which I also support; and nothing to do with climate change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    15 minute neighborhoods.
    I don't know about you, but the idea of getting all my daily needs within 15 minutes' travel time on foot or by bicycle, without having to worry about rat-running traffic, seems rather attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    Phasing out of ICE cars - that's in law and if in 10 years time 75% of us have EVs, we'll be stuffed, because we won't be able to get anywhere as the grid will have collapsed.
    I'm with you on this one: EV's definitely aren't the answer to climate change. The correct answer is reducing the need to travel by any means more powerful than an e-bike; for example by creating more 15-minute neighbourhoods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    I'd even argue that allowing the roads to fall in to disrepair is dictating to a degree how we travel and Blackburn is effectively log-jammed most mornings since they put in bus lanes, so not a law that tells you that you cannot drive from A to B, but it's certainly made it more difficult.
    Looks like they have only gone for half-measures in Blackburn, rather than going the whole hog as in many Dutch cities; there, they have made it virtually impossible to drive from A to B within the cities, not by disrepair, but by road closures that only allow cycles and buses through. Result: peaceful, safe streets, with shops doing good business because everyone is going slowly enough to look into shop windows.
    In his lifetime he suffered from unreality, as do so many Englishmen.
    Jorge Luis Borges

  3. #43
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonykay View Post
    Introduced to protect people's health, following evidence of increases in asthma and other respiratory problems. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ult...y-we-have-ulez. Basically the same motivation as banning smoking in public buildings, which I also support; and nothing to do with climate change.


    I don't know about you, but the idea of getting all my daily needs within 15 minutes' travel time on foot or by bicycle, without having to worry about rat-running traffic, seems rather attractive.


    I'm with you on this one: EV's definitely aren't the answer to climate change. The correct answer is reducing the need to travel by any means more powerful than an e-bike; for example by creating more 15-minute neighbourhoods.



    Looks like they have only gone for half-measures in Blackburn, rather than going the whole hog as in many Dutch cities; there, they have made it virtually impossible to drive from A to B within the cities, not by disrepair, but by road closures that only allow cycles and buses through. Result: peaceful, safe streets, with shops doing good business because everyone is going slowly enough to look into shop windows.
    Introduced as climate change measures, claiming knock-on effects for people's health.

    Strangely though, it's OK if you pay, so looks more of a revenue earner. If us with ICE vehicles pay we can produce as many asthma inducing particles as we like.

    on the 15 minutes, cart before horse.

    Provide the facilities.
    https://www.barratthomes.co.uk/new-h...-bernets-nook/
    WE have 600 new houses, Section 106 money stolen by the LA to be spent elsewhere in the town. No community facilities, no footpath for families to get their kids across Broken Stone Rd (which has no footpaths) and through the Gib Lane Masterplan Development of around 1000 homes.
    School land was earmarked on planning permsission in 2014, but no school, so primary kids are being driven to options further away and older kids are being bussed out of BwD to Preston, South Ribble, Bolton and Ribble Valley Schools.

    I could go on, but you get my point.

    You do not kick off 15 minute neighborhoods by restricting the publics ability to move around an area when there are no options within that area, not even a corner shop.

    What Blackburn have done is taken grants to provide cycle lanes and bus lanes. It's a real botch job to access the funding with come sections of bike lane less than 10 metres in length, but they count towards the total.
    But when the main A roads are single lane, with Victorian terraces lining them, the options to widen and add bus and cycle lanes are clearly limited, and efforts to do so sub-optimal.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    Introduced as climate change measures, claiming knock-on effects for people's health.

    Strangely though, it's OK if you pay, so looks more of a revenue earner. If us with ICE vehicles pay we can produce as many asthma inducing particles as we like.

    on the 15 minutes, cart before horse.

    Provide the facilities.
    https://www.barratthomes.co.uk/new-h...-bernets-nook/
    WE have 600 new houses, Section 106 money stolen by the LA to be spent elsewhere in the town. No community facilities, no footpath for families to get their kids across Broken Stone Rd (which has no footpaths) and through the Gib Lane Masterplan Development of around 1000 homes.
    School land was earmarked on planning permsission in 2014, but no school, so primary kids are being driven to options further away and older kids are being bussed out of BwD to Preston, South Ribble, Bolton and Ribble Valley Schools.

    I could go on, but you get my point.

    You do not kick off 15 minute neighborhoods by restricting the publics ability to move around an area when there are no options within that area, not even a corner shop.

    What Blackburn have done is taken grants to provide cycle lanes and bus lanes. It's a real botch job to access the funding with come sections of bike lane less than 10 metres in length, but they count towards the total.
    But when the main A roads are single lane, with Victorian terraces lining them, the options to widen and add bus and cycle lanes are clearly limited, and efforts to do so sub-optimal.
    Why don't you stand for your local council so you could have a positive influence?

  5. #45
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPo View Post
    Why don't you stand for your local council so you could have a positive influence?
    In 1999 didn't join the Tory Party, but a friends mother was running in our ward and it had been Labour for 18 years.
    I put in about 8 weeks knocking on doors, leafleting, home calling, giving lifts to vote on election day and I attended the count.
    She won, but I found lots of things that put me off local politics and party politics.

    Between 2002 and 2019 I was quite involved with the Local Authority, working with Councillors and Directors of Service/Senior Management on events linked to Blackburn Harriers. I was also fostering for 6-7 years of that time so involved on more than one front.

    I find councillors have little influence.

    If you are in opposition, all you can do is ask for information, or action for a member of the public and sometimes you get nowhere, or no response.

    It's not much better if you are part of the leading group.

    The LA is run by the Chief Exec and directors of service.

    So I think running as a councillor would be a waste of time and energy. One is unlikely to win unless part of a party and even then there is little one can do.

    Looking back I believe the spare time that I had was better used coaching, team managing, event organising than if I had tried to get involved in politics.

    I couldn't have done both.
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  6. #46
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
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    What happens when you try and ask your local council Environmental Panel some pertinent questions about the consequences of net-zero in your town? Ordinary Brits sensing a complete 'stitch-up'

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqUP2QTQgVM

    Am Yisrael Chai

  7. #47
    Master Witton Park's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mossdog View Post
    What happens when you try and ask your local council Environmental Panel some pertinent questions about the consequences of net-zero in your town? Ordinary Brits sensing a complete 'stitch-up'

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqUP2QTQgVM

    alt right
    Richard Taylor
    "William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
    Sid Waddell

  8. #48
    Moderator Mossdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witton Park View Post
    alt right
    Haven't you heard? Swastikas are de rigueur once again.
    Am Yisrael Chai

  9. #49
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    I finally remembered to bring an HDMI lead back from work so i can watch it on the TV. One thing that stands out in the whole issue is that one side is actively suppressing the other, and there ends their scientific curiosity; the scientific method gives way to bigotry and taboo. The story is the same with the mind/body problem and psy phenomena. Only more data will progress the climate issue; about 1000yrs worth will do it, so i suggest we park it for a while.
    Luke Appleyard (Wharfedale)- quick on the dissent

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