Help Wanted: Glass Ankles

[CL]

I've just found this www.timinvermont.com/fitness/b1c8.htm for anyone that may have been tempted to try squats for conditioning purposes, but have been put off by comments made here.

The article was written in the early 70s by Arthur Jones. Jones invented the variable resistance exercise machines(nautilus), and was in my opinion the most knowledgeable man on the subject of physical training.

His business was selling exercise machines, so he had nothing to gain financially by promoting the full squat.

He as far as I know didn't have a PHD either, but what he did have was the knowledge to produce the most successful exercise machines in the world.

Read on and enjoy.

[southernsoftie]

Wow!! I've been away for the weekend and come back to see I've nearly started a war on the forum

Obviously this is a subject which divides opinion. The reason I mentioned squats was because back in the day, I was suffering with ITB trouble and underwent physio treatment. They prescribed some stretches to loosen it up and said that if I increased the strength in the muscles around the joints, they wouldn't have to make so much of a correction (which was causing the trouble).

They said squats and calf raises would be ideal. I think they were only talking about half-squats (i.e. until thigh at right angle to the floor) which I think is different to the full-squat. My understanding was this is until you sit on your calves though that article CL, has kind of made this clearer.

I never actually did this much after the problem disappeared, because I find leg exercises boring - if I did weights it would always be upper-body. However, needs must.

I was combining this with the wobble-board as the aim of this was to improve my stability which I always understood was good for strengthening the ligaments and such like of the joints (similar to the standing on one leg someone suggested, and I think mentioned in Feet in the Clouds).

However this was all fairly improvised and cobbled together from my own limited understanding, so I was just wondering if there were any tried and tested specific exercises I could do.

I have now invested in a pair of proper shoes (Running Bears) and took them for a spin this morning, with a few hill sprints up a steep trail near me. Definitely less wobbly on my feet, but still feeling the lactic acid in my quads quite sharply (and as a result on very shaky legs going back down). This is where I thought the squats would come in useful to be honest, giving me more power and endurance in my thighs to get up the hills.

Agree MG, that there is no substitute for the real thing and getting into the hills, but wanted to complement that with some focused muscle work, to speed up any improvements in my performance.

I hope no-one's fallen out because of lil ole me, and thanks to everyone for their input. I will try and take all of this and build a suitable programme. Will struggle on getting on to a leg/calf raise type machine as I am no member of a gym, and have little spare time/cash to join one at the mo', but I can improvise.

A word on the trampoline, does that mean everyone with a massive trampoline in their garden is a hardened fell-runner?!Will look to get my own some time in the future.

Thanks again, and I look forward to watching the debate unfold!

[CL]

Wow!! I've been away for the weekend and come back to see I've nearly started a war on the forum

Obviously this is a subject which divides opinion. The reason I mentioned squats was because back in the day, I was suffering with ITB trouble and underwent physio treatment. They prescribed some stretches to loosen it up and said that if I increased the strength in the muscles around the joints, they wouldn't have to make so much of a correction (which was causing the trouble).

They said squats and calf raises would be ideal. I think they were only talking about half-squats (i.e. until thigh at right angle to the floor) which I think is different to the full-squat. My understanding was this is until you sit on your calves though that article CL, has kind of made this clearer.

I never actually did this much after the problem disappeared, because I find leg exercises boring - if I did weights it would always be upper-body. However, needs must.

I was combining this with the wobble-board as the aim of this was to improve my stability which I always understood was good for strengthening the ligaments and such like of the joints (similar to the standing on one leg someone suggested, and I think mentioned in Feet in the Clouds).

However this was all fairly improvised and cobbled together from my own limited understanding, so I was just wondering if there were any tried and tested specific exercises I could do.

I have now invested in a pair of proper shoes (Running Bears) and took them for a spin this morning, with a few hill sprints up a steep trail near me. Definitely less wobbly on my feet, but still feeling the lactic acid in my quads quite sharply (and as a result on very shaky legs going back down). This is where I thought the squats would come in useful to be honest, giving me more power and endurance in my thighs to get up the hills.

Agree MG, that there is no substitute for the real thing and getting into the hills, but wanted to complement that with some focused muscle work, to speed up any improvements in my performance.

I hope no-one's fallen out because of lil ole me, and thanks to everyone for their input. I will try and take all of this and build a suitable programme. Will struggle on getting on to a leg/calf raise type machine as I am no member of a gym, and have little spare time/cash to join one at the mo', but I can improvise.

A word on the trampoline, does that mean everyone with a massive trampoline in their garden is a hardened fell-runner?!Will look to get my own some time in the future.

Thanks again, and I look forward to watching the debate unfold!

Southernsoftie
you should go all the way down in the squat. The reason Jones says to stop just before this point is because there is a tendency to bounce off the calves to get going.

This bounding effect can be avoided by not speeding up at the bottom of the lift in anticipation of this effect.

If you go onto You-Tube and type in Brady 190kg squat, you'll see the correct technique. For 20 reps you must move at a good pace(relative to the weight), and not pause at the top or bottom to get relief. One set of 20reps twice a week is all that's needed.

Stopping the squat at the mid-point is the worst place to stop, because at that point the torque is higher. By going right down, some of the weight is taken through the calves and feet. Additionally you get the benefit of extra stretching and muscle fibre involvement.

If your thighs are hurting, then you'll also need a leg-extension and if you do these you'll also need a leg-curl, so pairs of muscles are developed equally.

The reason weight training is effective is mainly due to the increase in blood vessels of the muscles, leading to an increase in muscular endurance.

[southernsoftie]

Cheers CL - who'd have thought there was so much to such a seemingly simple problem? I do generally try to keep all movement under weight in control and at a steady pace, so will give those a try. As I said, for the leg curls and extensions, I'll need to improvise for now.

Thanks again though - really useful.

[Big Bad Baz]

interesting reading all this.

Would you believe that i cant even squat down nto my calves with no weight (except my own) and i cant kneel on the floor and then sit back onto my calves.

A very sad range of motion eh?

[CL]

interesting reading all this.

Would you believe that i cant even squat down nto my calves with no weight (except my own) and i cant kneel on the floor and then sit back onto my calves.

A very sad range of motion eh?

What is stopping you getting into these positions Baz?

[Big Bad Baz]

I say probably lack of flexibility in my quads?

I cannot kneel on the floor,for in stance with my toes pointing away behind me and then sit down on my calves. I often watch how easily kids will do this!

As a side note to the whole squatting issue-i always thought the idea was to maintain the minimum amount of knee lift as you can when running uphill? But recently my new job involved me loading the triple deck car transporters that you see on the roads. This involved me having to step up onto the bottom deck with one leg at approx 90 degree angle.

I couldnt believe how difficult i found this! I would have to get some more leverage,using my arms as well-6 months on i can easily do it-suppose my quads must have been very weak inspite of the uphill running?

I wonder if some hill sprints with exaggerated knee lift would be of benefit?

I will often lose places on a very steep climb when it comes time to walk-my lower back seems to give in as well,the muscles fatigue very quickly.

Other than that i dont do too badly!!

[CL]

I say probably lack of flexibility in my quads?

I cannot kneel on the floor,for in stance with my toes pointing away behind me and then sit down on my calves. I often watch how easily kids will do this!

As a side note to the whole squatting issue-i always thought the idea was to maintain the minimum amount of knee lift as you can when running uphill? But recently my new job involved me loading the triple deck car transporters that you see on the roads. This involved me having to step up onto the bottom deck with one leg at approx 90 degree angle.

I couldnt believe how difficult i found this! I would have to get some more leverage,using my arms as well-6 months on i can easily do it-suppose my quads must have been very weak inspite of the uphill running?

I wonder if some hill sprints with exaggerated knee lift would be of benefit?

I will often lose places on a very steep climb when it comes time to walk-my lower back seems to give in as well,the muscles fatigue very quickly.

Other than that i dont do too badly!!

Baz at 15 stones you'll nearly always lose time to the usual 10stone runner.

The reason you can't sit on your calves whilst kneeling is definitely due to a lack of flexibility in your thighs. It's worth increasing your flexibility as you would move more freely. Weight training can overcome this stiffness.

During steady running the range of movement is very limited. This means muscles outside this range don't develop, hence you couldn't step-up.

If I were you I'd reduce my training(when not racing) to three days a week. Two sessions of anaerobic work with a club(Mon,Thurs) and one long run at weekend. The faster work would stretch you out more and develop your speed, whilst the rest days would allow your body to produce the changes.

You may be surprised. Bigger men need hard training just the same, but less of it. I suppose it depends on what is important to you, getting faster and stronger, or being out and about in the countryside.

P.S The back pains are caused by your upper body acting as a lever on your lower back. If you do the squats in the way I suggested, over time the pains will vanish.

[Big Bad Baz]

Many thanks CL!

I do have the long runs (9-15 miles) at the weekends. But if im honest i never do speedwork of any kind, except when i race and this is probably not the best time!

My flexibility has been crap ever since i was a teenager-interesting that you would suggest weight training would overcome this stiffness? I wouldve thought that this would have the opposite effect?

Would general stretching/flexibility/mobility exercises be more beneficial?

Apologies to Glass Ankles for wandering slightly....

[NotOnUrHelly]

On the subject of flexibility and Quad Strength,

Firstly flexibility: I have been doing yoga for the last 10 weeks. I am shocked at how inflexible I am. As a runner I have very rarely stretched, I could not even get close to achieving even half the stretch on 90% of the yoga moves. This came as a total shock to me and has opened my eyes a bit to how tight 5 years running has made me. Im gonna keep the yoga up and certainly do more strectches before running.

Quad Strength:I have been struggling recently with a maltracking patella, this has been causing quite a bit of dull aches and shooting pains in my knee that has made me back off running for a few months.

Last night I went to see a pretty well known physio in Frodsham. He immeadiatly pointed out that I have muscle wasting on my inner quads. Which is causing the outer quads to pull my knee cap out of line. He put me through various exercises and it really hit home how weak my quads are.

How can this be? the quads are the first thing to start burning on the big climbs in fell races. Plus they take most of the strain on the descent.

He has given me one or two exercises and told me to get religious about these. He also told me to my knee prob is nothing to worry about and I should start building the running up slowly.

My point being I cant believe how inflexible I am and how weak my quads are. I can understand the fliexibility thing, but the quad thing has baffled me.

Jamie