Bavarian race tragedy

[studmarks]

Our required kit wouldn't be enough in a blizzard though, especially as many runners, including me, push the requirements as far as they can. look at the Skyline the other year, if bad weather comes in then runners face a battle, with or without kit. Part of the challenge though is getting it right and coping, but it wouldn't be a challenge if it was gaurenteed safety that's part of the appeal, there is a real risk of trouble and occassionally people will get caught out, but remove all the risk, remove the appeal IMO.

Even on a warm day if you fall and are incapacitated you could rapidly loose body heat due to the body going into shock and shutting down the circulatory system, this can be caused by a number of thinks severe blood loss or body fluids low blood sugar to name a few.
But one big issue that seems to have been over looked in this thread is the fact in bad weather it isn’t just your self your putting in jeopardy but the life’s of the volunteers the mountain rescue service the helicopter crews who will have to come out and rescue you.
Then there’s the race organiser who will come under scrutiny and it may even be suggested responsible had the safety precautions not been followed correctly, ask Pete Bland (Kentmere 1994), also the bad press the sport would receive, then there will be risk assessments leading to even more rules.

[wycoller]

In senior races aren't we primarily responsible for our own safety? I sometimes carry more than the "minimum" requirement as do many others.

[IainR]

In senior races aren't we primarily responsible for our own safety? I sometimes carry more than the "minimum" requirement as do many others.

Totally agree. In a long fell race I'll take shorts, vest and waterproofs, there's no way I could stay out for 4 hours in bad weather wearing that. It will buy me time to get off the hill, but I take the gamble on the weather and go as light as possible so I can be as fast as possible, but the otherside of that gamble is I run the risk of having to get off the hills and drop out of the race should the weather crap out. But that's my call.

[DazTheSlug]

Totally agree. In a long fell race I'll take shorts, vest and waterproofs, there's no way I could stay out for 4 hours in bad weather wearing that. It will buy me time to get off the hill, but I take the gamble on the weather and go as light as possible so I can be as fast as possible, but the otherside of that gamble is I run the risk of having to get off the hills and drop out of the race should the weather crap out. But that's my call.

This is fine for most of our races in the UK (dropping to the wrong valley/wrong place in the right valley and DNF'ing the race), but for a race like the Zugspite where you could be 2000m up from safety, you either need a nail-on good-weather forecast or you need to carry "monster" kit.

[studmarks]

In senior races aren't we primarily responsible for our own safety? I sometimes carry more than the "minimum" requirement as do many others.

Quite right we are and I think the FRA guide lines for safety on kit etc are adequate, I think the issue on kit checks before during or after a race should be implemented more by the race organises.
Complacency is a dangerous thing especially on the hills, at the end of the day though I suppose it’s all down to commonsense and experience.

[IainR]

This is fine for most of our races in the UK (dropping to the wrong valley/wrong place in the right valley and DNF'ing the race), but for a race like the Zugspite where you could be 2000m up from safety, you either need a nail-on good-weather forecast or you need to carry "monster" kit.

This was my NZ approach too. Where the 'wrong valley' was a long long way out. But the fact was the wrong valley was still low and sheltered. Running up to around 1500-2000+m was quite normal over there, good forecast or not, we just accepted the clothing we had was only there to get us off the hill. The thing that needs improving isn't gear it's again just basic hill experience. The more time you spend in the hills the better you get at assessing the weather there and then, what's coming at you, something we can never have enough of IMO.

Despite all this talk of kit requirements people don't know that the guys who died didn't have kit, all it does say is many didn't, not all.

It does suprise me a bit that people from adventure sports are too willing to point the finger and try to find fault. Sometimes there isn't fault, accidents happen, it's not to do with a lack of kit, the organiser or anything else. Running in the mountains is a high risk sport and there will always be a chance of death. Afterall many of us run solo in the hills in winter; a broken ankle, a knock to head, so easy to happen, could all result in a fatality.

This was a snap storm. How many of us really wait for a perfect weather forecast to go for a fell run UK or alpine based, many times I've tried to get a run/walk in before a front hits.

Mountain/Fell running is partially about pushing the boundaries of what is possible, whether it's distance/time/season/height/speed; unfortunately pushing at the boundaries exposes the runner to real risks. You only have to read some accounts of winter 24 hr + rounds to appreciate the very real risks involved, but risks that have been assessed and mitigated. The risk is never entirely removed though, nor it should it be.

[Joe]

It surprises me how worked up people can get from the suggestion that mountain races on the continent might be safer if they followed the same safety regulations we have imposed upon ourselves here.

[IainR]

Don't think it's worked up, or is disagreeing automatically getting worked up. We all have our own safety regulations, the UK is a LOT less than we had in NZ (full thermals, survival bags, waterproofs, hat, gloves), so no doubt we can be safer yet, no doubt some kiwis sit there and posture about deaths in UK fell running saying it can be safer, sure it can be, should it be? personally I want it left as is.

Who are we to say our regulations are sufficient yet theirs aren't just because they've had a death in their sport, we've had our fair share of fatalities too. That's just the risk of running in the hills with bugger all kit (and yes flimsy waterproof covering is still bugger all kit should a runner suffer an injury in a remote location).

[Fellhound]

I haven't entered this (eternally repeated) debate as yet because IainR has pretty much said it all for me.

There are risks. Part of the appeal of the sport is we have to deal with them. Sanitise the sport and it will be the poorer for it. Carry "monster" kit and you might as well include boots and accept you are not a runner.