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Thread: Weight Training

  1. #21
    Senior Member Roy Scott's Avatar
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    Re: Weight Training

    Just a bit of actual sports science to dispel a few misconceptions.

    The definition of strength is the ability to exert a maximal force in one effort. Based on the priciple of specific adaptations for imposed demands the way to train for maximal strength is to minimise the reps and maximise the weight/resistance.

    Any activity that lasts for more than 3 minutes, is continous in nature and uses large muscle groups will be predominately aerobic (with oxygen). As all fell racing fits the criteria the important components of fitness are muscular endurance and cardio vascular fitness. This is no revelation as if your any good you will have trained this way.

    However improvements in power and strength can have a positive knock effect for fell running performance in two important ways.
    1 - Certain phases of the race will require anaerobic (without oxygen) performance. A sprint or short burst/effort will rely more on power and strength as it utilises alternative anaerobic energy systems.

    2 - Higher levels of strength and power can improve your muscular endurance as a result of raising the upper ceiling of performance. If you think of your fitness as a pyramid with the base being provided by aerobic training and the tip being provided by strength and power.
    The Journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step

  2. #22
    Senior Member A.G's Avatar
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    Re: Weight Training

    Quote Originally Posted by christopher leigh View Post
    A.G is it your opinion that Jonathon Edwards and Christian Malcome are more powerful than a bodybuilding type athlete, like Geoff Capes?
    Wasn't Capes a shot putter? Since shot put is all about power, I'd say no they're not.

    Capes had anything but a bodybuilders frame surely!

  3. #23
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    Re: Weight Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Scott View Post
    Just a bit of actual sports science to dispel a few misconceptions.

    The definition of strength is the ability to exert a maximal force in one effort. Based on the priciple of specific adaptations for imposed demands the way to train for maximal strength is to minimise the reps and maximise the weight/resistance.

    Any activity that lasts for more than 3 minutes, is continous in nature and uses large muscle groups will be predominately aerobic (with oxygen). As all fell racing fits the criteria the important components of fitness are muscular endurance and cardio vascular fitness. This is no revelation as if your any good you will have trained this way.

    However improvements in power and strength can have a positive knock effect for fell running performance in two important ways.
    1 - Certain phases of the race will require anaerobic (without oxygen) performance. A sprint or short burst/effort will rely more on power and strength as it utilises alternative anaerobic energy systems.

    2 - Higher levels of strength and power can improve your muscular endurance as a result of raising the upper ceiling of performance. If you think of your fitness as a pyramid with the base being provided by aerobic training and the tip being provided by strength and power.
    What do you mean by 'minimise the reps?' Is that 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8....rep/s. In fact what is the best way of training for strength? Since you don't want any misconceptions, but do want some actual science, perhaps you could be precise.

  4. #24
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    Re: Weight Training

    Quote Originally Posted by A.G View Post
    Wasn't Capes a shot putter? Since shot put is all about power, I'd say no they're not.

    Capes had anything but a bodybuilders frame surely!
    A.G I think you're thinking of competitive bodybuilders. Not even they though, have built their bodies to the level of a Capes.

    The point I want to make to you, is muscle size and strength are related. To increase your strength to any significant level, you must also increase the size of your muscles.

    The mistake people make is to compare athletes. True some smaller athletes can demonstrate greater strength than some bigger athletes, but for each person to get significantly stronger they must get bigger and vice versa.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Trimm Trab's Avatar
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    Re: Weight Training

    This sort of thing comes up on cycling forums all the time - should I do weights to get massive muscular legs to help me go up hills? The answer is generally no, because to get up anything but the shortest climb in the quickest time possible all that's really important is your power-to-weight ratio, and power is not the same thing as strength. Fell-running's a bit different in that strong legs are a big help on the descents, but as long as your legs are strong enough to enable you to run up stairs two at a time, all that matters on the uphills is power-to-weight. Having your upper body stacked is just going to add weight, reduce your power-to-weight ratio, and make you climb slower. It will hardly help on the descents either, for the reasons already given by AG.

    I wish it were different - years of rowing has left me with good cv fitness and plenty strong enough, but at 13.5 stone for just under 6' I'm unlikely to be bothering the pointy end of races anytime soon!

  6. #26
    Senior Member A.G's Avatar
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    Re: Weight Training

    Quote Originally Posted by christopher leigh View Post
    A.G I think you're thinking of competitive bodybuilders. Not even they though, have built their bodies to the level of a Capes.

    The point I want to make to you, is muscle size and strength are related. To increase your strength to any significant level, you must also increase the size of your muscles.

    The mistake people make is to compare athletes. True some smaller athletes can demonstrate greater strength than some bigger athletes, but for each person to get significantly stronger they must get bigger and vice versa.
    Chris, I was talking about power in relation to body builders, not strength. As I said above, body builders must have strength as they have muscle.

  7. #27
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    Re: Weight Training

    In the context of physique, strength is the ability to produce power. They are not unrelated. To be strong is to be powerful. Bodybuilders are very strong and powerful, but that doesn't mean they can always demonstrate great strength in comparison to stronger, smaller Men. This is often because of fibre type and leverage disadvantages.

  8. #28
    Master Swoop's Avatar
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    Re: Weight Training

    I don't think it's my lack of momentum that makes me slow. It's my moments of inertia.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Roy Scott's Avatar
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    Re: Weight Training

    Quote Originally Posted by christopher leigh View Post
    What do you mean by 'minimise the reps?' Is that 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8....rep/s. In fact what is the best way of training for strength? Since you don't want any misconceptions, but do want some actual science, perhaps you could be precise.

    In the context of physique, strength is the ability to produce power. They are not unrelated. To be strong is to be powerful. Bodybuilders are very strong and powerful, but that doesn't mean they can always demonstrate great strength in comparison to stronger, smaller Men. This is often because of fibre type and leverage disadvantages.
    Oh, sorry Chris I do apologise. What I mean by 'minimise the reps' is that 1 rep would equal maximal strength and as the reps increase you start to move towards training sub maximal strength and towards muscular endurance and hypertrophy rep ranges. Just think of it as a continuum with 1 rep and maximal strength on the left and 25+ reps and muscular endurance on the extreme right. The problem with training at such low rep ranges and heavy weight however is that the chance of injury also increases.

    You are still getting a little confused with strength and power in your posts. Yes you require strength to develop power but they are very different. Strength is not the ability to produce power. The speed component of power is as important if not more than the strength side of the equation. Studies have shown that the maximum abount of power is created when acting against a resistance of 30% of maximum load. Therefore if I wanted to get the maximum power out of you through a gym exercise such as a bench press, I would load up the bar with a weight that was 30% of your maximum lift.
    The Journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step

  10. #30
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    Re: Weight Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Scott View Post
    Oh, sorry Chris I do apologise. What I mean by 'minimise the reps' is that 1 rep would equal maximal strength and as the reps increase you start to move towards training sub maximal strength and towards muscular endurance and hypertrophy rep ranges. Just think of it as a continuum with 1 rep and maximal strength on the left and 25+ reps and muscular endurance on the extreme right. The problem with training at such low rep ranges and heavy weight however is that the chance of injury also increases.

    You are still getting a little confused with strength and power in your posts. Yes you require strength to develop power but they are very different. Strength is not the ability to produce power. The speed component of power is as important if not more than the strength side of the equation. Studies have shown that the maximum abount of power is created when acting against a resistance of 30% of maximum load. Therefore if I wanted to get the maximum power out of you through a gym exercise such as a bench press, I would load up the bar with a weight that was 30% of your maximum lift.
    Mr Scott it's the other way around. You require power to develop strength.
    Anyway since you think I'm confused I've looked up 'strength' in both the Oxford Dictionary and 'The physiology of exercise.'

    The noun strength leads to the adjective 'Strong,' so I've looked this up. In one it states 'Capable of exerting or resisting great power.' The other dictionary states 'physically powerful.'

    The physiology of exercise states 'Strength maybe defined as the ABILITY to exert great tension against resistance.' It then follows with 'This ABILITY depends essentially on the contractile POWER of muscular tissue.'

    The concept of strength cannot be formed before the concept of power. In other words power must exist before force or strength.

    Now can we discuss muscular endurance. I'm thinking that to split reps up into strength and endurance, is a mistake.

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